Quick question on Matthew 18:8

Originally posted by @divegeester
Half of matthew 18:8 is literal and half is metaphorical, is that what you are saying?

I make no statements about proportions, ie halfs, thirds, fifths.

Are YOU saying - that since I say that Matt. 18:8 contains something not to be literally carried out, THEREFORE we need not concern ourselves with the warnings of:

Matthew 25:41,46; Rom. 2:5; Rev. 14:10; Rev. 20:15; Jude 7; Matt. 5:22; John 3:36; John 5:29; Luke 12:5; 2 Thess. 1:8,9; Daniel 12:2; Matt. 26:24; Mark 14:21; and Heb. 9:27 ?

Originally posted by @sonship
I make no statements about proportions, ie halfs, thirds, fifths.

Are YOU saying - that since I say that [b] Matt. 18:8 contains something not to be literally carried out, THEREFORE we need not concern ourselves with the warnings of:

Matthew 25:41,46; Rom. 2:5; Rev. 14:10; Rev. 20:15; Jude 7; Matt. 5:22; John 3:36; John 5:29; Luke 12:5; 2 Thess. 1:8,9; Daniel 12:2; Matt. 26:24; Mark 14:21; and Heb. 9:27 ?[/b]

I’m saying what I’ve always said that it’s all metaphor and parable, as was most of Jesus teaching.

Sonship threatening to keep people alive so you can torture them for not believing in you is terrorism of the highest order, can you honestly not see that?

Originally posted by @divegeester
I’m saying what I’ve always said that it’s all metaphor and parable, as was most of Jesus teaching.

Sonship threatening to keep people alive so you can torture them for not believing in you is terrorism of the highest order, can you honestly not see that?

I don't think that you directly answered my question.
You heaped on some old tried and true (to you) expressions for emotional appeal.

My question is rather simple.

If I say there is an element in Matthew 18:8 I don't think Jesus meant for me to carry out in literal amputation, does that mean that ALL and more of the passages teaching of judgment or punishment in an ultimate sense at the hands of God, NEED NOT CONCERN US ??

Like - Matthew 25:41,46; Rom. 2:5; Rev. 14:10; Rev. 20:15; Jude 7; Matt. 5:22; John 3:36; John 5:29; Luke 12:5; 2 Thess. 1:8,9; Daniel 12:2; Matt. 26:24; Mark 14:21; and Heb. 9:27 ?

If your answer is "Yes it means we need not be concerned" - then I don't agree.

If your answer is "No, but we should be concerned" - I agree and don't think the issue needs that much more arguing about the exact details of danger scientifically. But we should not dampen the sense of urgency.

Originally posted by @sonship
I don't think that you directly answered my question.
If your answer is "Yes it means we need not be concerned" - then I don't agree.

If your answer is "No, but we should be concerned" - I agree and don't think the issue needs that much more arguing about the exact details of danger scientifically. But we should not dampen the sense of urgency.

Are you asking me for a yes or no answer? REALLY?

OK I promise you I will give you one IF you will first give me a yes no answer to my question in the other thread which I've just posted.

Please don't pretend you haven't seen it

Originally posted by @divegeester
Are you asking me for a yes or no answer? REALLY?

OK I promise you I will give you one IF you will first give me a yes no answer to my question in the other thread which I've just posted.

Please don't pretend you haven't seen it

Back to the Trinity ?

Look, everybody knows that there are allegories in the Bible, probably hundreds of them. Maybe more.

Word pictures, allegories, symbolism ... what would the Bible BE without parables, allegories, and symbolism ??

I can't imagine a Bible without parables and allegories.

The difference between us is that I think something HORRIFIC and TERRIBLE - like being separated from God without forgiveness forever - doesn't lose its dread if allegorized or symbolized.

You seem to be putting your hope in this -

Jesus Christ was not serious. To be unjustified, unreconciled, unforgiven and unrepentant to God - won't be bad. Ya won't feel a THING. He's not that angry and He is not that able to do anything about it. He's stuck with your non-existence once you die.

You know this is what Adolf Eichmann of the Third Reich thought at the end of his trial for his crimes. He said that he was glad for what he did and would jump laughing into his grave after they hung him.

I would have said -

"Mr Eichmann I am afraid that you don't realize that it is not these men in Nuremberg that you really should fear. Jesus Christ told us who we really have to account for. "

"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do,

But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna, yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)

"Mr. Eichmann, you are about to realize that your Fuerur was not greater than God."

Originally posted by @sonship
Look, everybody knows that there are allegories in the Bible, probably hundreds of them. Maybe more.
Word pictures, allegories, symbolism ... what would the Bible BE without parables, allegories, and symbolism ??
I can't imagine a Bible without parables and allegories.

ha-ha and there's the dodge...

Originally posted by @divegeester
ha-ha and there's the dodge...

That signals that you are about to start a new thread, I bet.

Originally posted by @sonship
That signals that you are about to start a new thread, I bet.

As I’ve said to you many times sonship, when you feel you are ready to get into a yes/no exchange on key questions please let me know.

My first question to you will be:
Despite me being a believer in Jesus Christ, in your opinion, will my outright rejection of the trinity doctrine preclude me from being saved? Yes or no.

I will happily, honestly and unequivocally reciprocate once you answer this question. Please PM me to make sure I don’t miss you on this 🙂

Originally posted by @divegeester
As I’ve said to you many times sonship, when you feel you are ready to get into a yes/no exchange on key questions please let me know.

My first question to you will be:
[b]Despite me being a believer in Jesus Christ, in your opinion, will my outright rejection of the trinity doctrine preclude me from being saved? Yes or no.

I will happily, ...[text shortened]... reciprocate once you answer this question. Please PM me to make sure I don’t miss you on this 🙂[/b]

I gave you a full chance to summarize exactly what you think you have proved up to now, and you didn't do it.
So smile as you will, I don't think you have a real point here.

Was this suppose to be some really devastating conclusive question proving ___________ !?

Despite me being a believer in Jesus Christ, in your opinion, will my outright rejection of the trinity doctrine preclude me from being saved? Yes or no.

It might if you reject that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead.

My conscience is clear that I have dealt with this old question multiple times.

You say "Despite me being a believer in Jesus Christ ...". I don't know what that means. A Jehovah's Witness or a Moslem and even some Atheists might say that they are believers in Jesus Christ in their own minds.

I don't know what you mean by "Despite me being a believer in Jesus Christ ..." .

Isn't the Trinity a Person more than a doctrine ?

Sure He is -

"Who is the liar if not he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."" (1 John 2:22)

FOCUS on the issue and don't get emotional or distracted. The above verse shows that to believe that "Jesus is the Christ" is simultaneously to believe "the Father and the Son".

So one may not understand the Trinity but believes in "the Father and the Son". And that is to believe that "Jesus is the Christ".

I didn't write that. The Apostle John did. The next verse says

"Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the Father also." (v.23)

You may not understand some things about the Trinity. And you may misunderstand and reject some strawman argument OR even reject some not too good presentation of a doctrine. But to confess the Son is to have the Father also.

Sure a man may possess the Father and the Son and indeed cannot have possession of One without the Other and not be conversant about a doctrinal discussion (rejecting what he thinks he understands as it ).

You can see why the question is not simple to answer Yes or No and nothing ELSE. And you should appreciate that SOME questions are like that without being suspicious that someone doesn't WANT to give you an answer.

Anyway, you should see from First John 2:22 in John's mind to believe that Jesus is the Christ is to NOT deny "the Father and the Son".

Having said that I would now ask you something. Paul wrote that it was God's desire that all men be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth.

" ... our Savior God, Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3b,4)

Which do you think we should persue eventually?

1.) Just to be saved to meet our desire.

2.) Afterward come to the full knowledge of the truth according to God's desire as well.

I think we should desire to be saved ... AND to come to the full knowledge of the truth as God's desire. And that would certainly include the immediately following -

" .. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (v.5)

That's the Triune God - the Savior God and the Savior man Jesus Christ the one Mediator between God and men. That is the Trinity.

Originally posted by @sonship
I gave you a full chance to summarize exactly what you think you have proved up to now, and you didn't do it.

Start a thread, open with your answer to the question below, Just let me know when you find the courage to honestly answer this question:

Despite me being a believer in Jesus Christ, in your opinion, will my outright rejection of the trinity doctrine preclude me from being saved? Yes or no.

Meanwhile continue to waste your time on this forum while billions perish at the hands of your monstrous version of God.

Originally posted by @divegeester
Start a thread, open with your answer to the question below, Just let me know when you find the courage to honestly answer this question:

[b]Despite me being a believer in Jesus Christ, in your opinion, will my outright rejection of the trinity doctrine preclude me from being saved? Yes or no.

Meanwhile continue to waste your time on this forum while billions perish at the hands of your monstrous version of God.[/b]

You don't have to claim that wasting time with you is wasting time with everyone else. That's too self-centered.

And it is noted that after I replied to your biggie, no reply from you on this:

Which do you think we should persue eventually?

1.) Just to be saved to meet our desire.

2.) Afterward come to the full knowledge of the truth according to God's desire as well.

Was it courage you were just talking about ?

Originally posted by @sonship
Was it courage you were just talking about ?

Despite me being a believer in Jesus Christ, in your opinion, will my outright rejection of the trinity doctrine preclude me from being saved? Yes or no.

You are another coward, scared of your own beliefs.