01 Jul 08
"How can you now say that Jews and Christians are worshipping a different God?"
I'm not saying that the Jews and the Christians are worshiping a different god. Rather what I am saying is that by praying to saints, or invoking pious people, or by supplicating prophets, then one is a polytheist - you (generally speakling, not YOU per se) believe in Allaah but you also believe in other than Him.
According to Islaam, there is no power higher, equal or less than Allaah. Allaah says:
[22.73] O mankind! a parable is set forth, therefore listen to it: surely those whom you call upon besides Allah cannot create fly, though they should all gather for it, and should the fly snatch away anything from them, they could not take it back. Weak are the invoker and the invoked.
My point is Raj, while one may say that they believe in one God, they have effectively nullified their belief (have become disbelivers) by worshiping other than Him. There are many forms that polytheism takes.
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by Rajk999From the top:
Ok ... give some very specific examples. For instance:
1. Catholic chruches have images of Mary and also pray to the'virgin Mary'.
2.
.
.
Include also instances of polytheism which Muslims are guilty of.
"the day" refers to the Day of Judgement.
[10.28] And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to those who associated others (with Allah): Keep where you are, you and your associates [those who were prayed to besides Allaah]; then We shall separate them widely one from another and their associates would say: It was not us that you worshipped:
[10.29] Therefore Allah is sufficient as a witness between us and you that we were quite unaware of your worshipping (us).
The Prophet said,"Prayer is worship!"
1 - Therefor, whoever is called on is in fact being worshiped: Jesus (peace be upon him), (or any prophet for that matter) a "Holy Spirit", Mary (peace be upon her) St. abc/xyz. Praying to them is worshiping them, hence it is poytheism.
2 - Invoking someone for their "intercession". Allaah says "[10.18] And they worship beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they (the polytheists) say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him).
and Allaah says:
[2.254] O you who believe! spend out of what We have given you before the day comes in which there is no bargaining, neither any friendship nor intercession, and the unbelievers-- they are the unjust.
3 - Grave worship - going to a tomb, grave, sepulcher. Most of the largest curches/basilicas have graves in them: st. peter's in Rome, St. Mary's in Turkey ect... The Jews do the same, actually there is a 24 visator's booth in a graveyard here in my local area for Jews who want to call on their rabbis.
One companion of the Prophet said to one of his companions "Shall I not send you on a mission on which I was sent by Allah's Messenger? Do not leave any image without erasing it, nor any elevated grave without leveling it to the ground."
These are a few ways in which polytheism occurs. There are others of course: luck, talimans, amulets, magic, diviniation, supersitions.
Not the mention trinity
02 Jul 08
Originally posted by IzzadeenThe Bible is clear that :
From the top:
"the day" refers to the Day of Judgement.
[10.28] And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to those who associated others (with Allah): Keep where you are, you and your associates [those who were prayed to besides Allaah]; then We shall separate them widely one from another and their associates would say: It ...[text shortened]... talimans, amulets, magic, diviniation, supersitions.
Not the mention trinity
1. "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is unforgivable,
2. idol worship is wrong.
3. prayer must be to God via Christ our mediator.
ANything else is left to the individual's discretion. Catholics have lots of images and Saint this that and the other. I personally wont recommend that approach but I wont say that it is a sin to have them.
As for the other stuff you mentioned I would call them trivial. One noticeable difference between the teachings of Christ and Mohammed is that Christ recommends tolerance and forgiveness while Mohammed recommends punnishment. eg apostates in Islam are often killed. No such thing happens in the modern world if a Christian decides to change to say Hindusim.
Now Muslims dont worship or pray to the prophet Mohammed. But in a sense they idolise him. For example in recent times there have been violent demonstrations against publishers who allow cartoons of Mohammed to be printed. Cartoons of Christ are published all the time and I dont see Christians threatening to kill anyone. I would call that a form of idolatry on the part of Muslims. Wont you say?
02 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999The Bible is clear that :
The Bible is clear that :
1. "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is unforgivable,
2. idol worship is wrong.
3. prayer must be to God via Christ our mediator.
ANything else is left to the individual's discretion. Catholics have lots of images and Saint this that and the other. I personally wont recommend that approach but I wont say that it is a sin t ...[text shortened]... ng to kill anyone. I would call that a form of idolatry on the part of Muslims. Wont you say?
1. "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is unforgivable,…
Just curious: if an atheist states that the “Holy Spirit” does not exist because no god exists, would he, according to the Bible, be committing “unforgivable blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"?
I am not saying that is the correct interpretation of the Bible but, IF it is, then he would deny that he is committing “unforgivable blasphemy” because he would claim that there is no “Holy Spirit" to commit “unforgivable blasphemy” against!
Also, IF that is the correct interpretation of the Bible, then the statement: -
…One noticeable difference between the teachings of Christ and Mohammed is that Christ recommends tolerance and forgiveness…
-would appear to be hypocrisy because the Bible would appear to recommend intolerance and non-forgiveness to any atheist that states that the “Holy Spirit” does not exist or, indeed, intolerance and non-forgiveness to anyone that states his belief that the Bible is wrong regardless of whether he is an atheist or a theist.
02 Jul 08
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonThe Bible calls atheists fools.
[b] The Bible is clear that :
1. "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" is unforgivable,…
Just curious: if an atheist states that the “Holy Spirit” does not exist because no god exists, would he, according to the Bible, be committing “unforgivable blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"?
I am not saying that is the correct interpretation of the Bi ...[text shortened]... tates his belief that the Bible is wrong regardless of whether he is an atheist or a theist.[/b]
Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Why do you want forgiveness from a God that calls you a fool?
Whatever punishment is due to atheists (I have no idea what, if any at all), will come to you regardless of if you think it will happen or not.
Forgiveness and tolerance is for those who ask or deserve it.
02 Jul 08
Originally posted by Rajk999“…Why do you want forgiveness from a God that calls you a fool? …”[/b]
The Bible calls atheists fools.
Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Why do you want forgiveness from a God that calls you a fool?
Whatever punishment is due to atheists (I have no idea what, if any at all), will come to you regardless of if you think it will happen or not.
Forgiveness and tolerance is for those who ask or deserve it.
You are putting words into my mouth and it is highly dishonest of you to do so.
Obviously, I never said nor implied that “I want forgiveness from God” and you know it.
That wouldn’t make any sense anyway: how can I want “forgiveness “ from somebody that I know doesn’t exist?! And how can I believe “God calls me a fool” when I know there is no god?
…Forgiveness and tolerance is for those who ask or deserve it….
So why wouldn’t somebody who can see no premise for believing there is a god “deserve” not to experience Forgiveness and tolerance? don’t you agree with ‘freedom of thought’? If you saying that, according to the Bible, atheists don’t “deserve” not to experience Forgiveness and tolerance and if you are correct about that then that would be an example of the Bible appearing to recommend intolerance and non-forgiveness.
02 Jul 08
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonI made a reasonable deduction based on your questions about forgiveness. And you are doing it again. Your questions and statemente lead me to think that you GIVE A DAMN about whether or not atheists can be forgiven.
“…Why do you want forgiveness from a God that calls you a fool? …”
You are putting words into my mouth and it is highly dishonest of you to do so.
Obviously, I never said nor implied that “I want forgiveness from God” and you know it.
That wouldn’t make any sense anyway: how can I want “forgiveness “ from somebody that I know doesn’t exist?! ...[text shortened]... en that would be an example of the Bible appearing to recommend intolerance and non-forgiveness.[/b]
Forgiveness and tolerance apply in specific situations. If you call that intolerance and non-forgiveness then thats fine.
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by Conrau KWho said anything about regarding Mary as a God ?
The Catholic Church does not regard Mary as a God. Catholics pray to Mary, and to all the departed, but do not elevate them to the status of gods.
Praying to Mary is not supported in the Bible. The Bible says to pray to God through Christ our mediator.
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03 Jul 08
Originally posted by Rajk999Who said anything about regarding Mary as a God ?
Who said anything about regarding Mary as a God ?
Praying to Mary is not supported in the Bible. The Bible says to pray to God through Christ our mediator.
You did, after all, claim the practice as evidence of polytheism.
Praying to Mary is not supported in the Bible. The Bible says to pray to God through Christ our mediator.
Does the Bible say to pray only to Christ?
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by Conrau KThe Bible never said to pray to Christ.
[b]Who said anything about regarding Mary as a God ?
You did, after all, claim the practice as evidence of polytheism.
Praying to Mary is not supported in the Bible. The Bible says to pray to God through Christ our mediator.
Does the Bible say to pray only to Christ?[/b]