01 Feb 06
Originally posted by windmillYour issues are more than should be addressed here. I suggest you seek out professional counseling.
they both took God's identity but the christians were worse because i thought they loved me.they just loved themselves and i was just a thing they could use to justify it.
01 Feb 06
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Originally posted by twhiteheadI have been to both a public and a Christian School and in my experience the best teacher were those who liked teaching. And that applied in both schools. In the Christian School there were some Catholic Brothers who had dedicated thier lives to teaching and as such were very good teachers. However allowing religion to be taught in school, or worse imposed as a requirement on children does not immediately improve the quality of teachers.
I was not refering to a faith, I was refering to the ethics teachings of people who claim to be of a particular faith. All of my points I have heard from Christians and some I have heard memebers of other religions as well.
I have been to both a public and a Christian School and in my experience the best teacher were those who liked teaching. And tha ...[text shortened]... ne important point. Does this mean that we should make all schools Muslim schools ? Explain why not.
This sounds to me like you’ve changed the discussion from ethics to the quality of education. I agree with you that the best teachers are the ones who enjoy it. You can’t tell me though that a great math teacher for example teaches ethics. If they do to any great degree then they shouldn’t. Ethics should be taught in ethics classes. Time constraints and the quality of education suffer if it’s not that way. Religious schools focus heavily on ethics and still manage to give a good education.
In my experience, the public schools were pretty violent places. Gangs, drugs, racial tension, etc. The private religious schools had none of that. You may have had different experiences than mine but my point is that when ethics are not taught during the early years, the outcome is not good.
I believe that the muslims I have met have in general as good as or better ethics than the Christians I have met. Refusing to indulge in alcohol being one important point. Does this mean that we should make all schools Muslim schools ? Explain why not.
God is the key. The different religions all teach the same universal ethics. Not down to the smallest detail, but they agree on the main points. 1. God is good and loves you. 2. God punishes sin. 3. Sins can be forgiven. 4. They outline various good works that are required. How these ethics get taught vary by religion, but the point is that they give people a reason to be good.
I’m not sure how familiar you are with relativity philosophy, but it basically says that there is no good or evil. Everything is relative to the individual or culture. This is the alternative to a God in my opinion.
When you compare one religion to another, don’t necessarily compare the devotees to one another, compare the scriptures. People falter. The fact that there are good and bad Christians does not change the scripture.
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressThe worst school I've ever been in was a christian private school.
When you compare private religious schools to public schools the differences become clear. Ethics is not a part of the school curriculum, at least not like it should be. Say what you want about religion, but it’s still the most effective way to teach ethics.
Overbearing and restrictive standards of ethics are as bad as overly lenient or nonexistant ones. They teach kids that ethics should be followed, not because it is inherently right to do so, but rather beause they are a set of rules made by the powerful, and must be obeyed without question.
It's easier to teach fear-based ethics. Just tell the kid that the big guy in the sky will smite them if they do wrong. But, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, once the myth wears thin, they're going to need a better reason.
01 Feb 06
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Originally posted by BigDoggProblemOverbearing and restrictive standards of ethics are as bad as overly lenient or nonexistant ones.
The worst school I've ever been in was a christian private school.
Overbearing and restrictive standards of ethics are as bad as overly lenient or nonexistant ones. They teach kids that ethics should be followed, not because it is inherently right to do so, but rather beause they are a set of rules made by the powerful, and must be obeyed with anta Claus and the Easter Bunny, once the myth wears thin, they're going to need a better reason.
What exactly do you consider to be “overbearing and restrictive standards?” Respecting the teacher? Not fighting? Not bringing drugs to school? Not using foul language? It would be nice if all schools were like that in my opinion.
They teach kids that ethics should be followed, not because it is inherently right to do so, but rather beause they are a set of rules made by the powerful, and must be obeyed without question.
They teach God’s law. Lets see, what are some examples…
1. Love thy neighbor as thy self.
2. Forgive so you may be forgiven
3. Help those who are in need.
4. Accept Jesus into your heart so that you will have the strength to stay on the path.
If one accepts God then they accept that these ethics are inherently good because they come from God and God in good. I agree that these rules can be corrupted. The laws themselves do not need to be questioned. It is clear that they are good. The way that the laws get applied by people should be questioned. In any case, I’ve found that there are far fewer serious behavior problems in religious schools than public schools, so for me at least the proof is in the pudding.
It's easier to teach fear-based ethics. Just tell the kid that the big guy in the sky will smite them if they do wrong. But, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, once the myth wears thin, they're going to need a better reason.
This is how you have come to think of religion, fear of God, fear of hell, fear of Jesus, fear of fear itself, fear fear fear. I can see why you have become so disillusioned. Actions have consequences. If we commit crimes here on earth then we may go to jail. If we commit sins and we convince ourselves that we don’t need God’s forgiveness then we may go to hell. How can things be any different? Do you live in dread of the police? Do you think that there should be no laws? Should anarchy reign? How could there ever be a Heaven? How could there ever be order here on earth? That’s really the whole point of ethics in the first place. Without God everything becomes relative. God is what gives meaning and purpose to good behavior. Otherwise people revert back to what is good for themselves regardless of how it affects others.
01 Feb 06
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHSorry about that. I didn't mean to get dogmatic. 😀 My only point is that consequences while essential should not be feared, they can also be good, and without them society couldn't exist. Jesus should be considered a good friend. Like I mentioned the way that God's laws get applied should always be questioned.
[b]If we commit sins and we convince ourselves that we don’t need God’s forgiveness then we may go to hell.
Whoa, easy there, TCE. No sense getting all dogmatic on us.
Nothing like the ambiguity of man-made rules, right?[/b]
01 Feb 06
Originally posted by windmillhow many people were in your class with your disliked teacher and how many of them are as angry/disturbed as you about the whole thing? (not meant to be offensive at all).
not many experience a racist teacher first.a lot of problem children went to the school and a lot also ended up in the gutter afterwards.some did well.
02 Feb 06
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Originally posted by The Chess ExpressI always did enjoy a good class fight! Damn, that teacher just cramped my style. Just cause his little sissy kid couldn't take a good beating.
Overbearing and restrictive standards of ethics are as bad as overly lenient or nonexistant ones.
What exactly do you consider to be “overbearing and restrictive standards?” Respecting the teacher? Not fighting? Not bringing drugs to school? Not using foul language? It would be nice if all schools were like that in my opinion.
They herwise people revert back to what is good for themselves regardless of how it affects others.
The worst fundamentalists insist that all kids do anything that any adult says, as if the whole religious community were their parents. The worst teachers expect kids to just listen to them yammer on for several hours without making any kind of noise. Then they send them off to be punished for 'talking in class' or 'talking out of turn' or 'horseplay'. These types give kids the message that learning is a passive activity that only takes place in brick prisons on strict schedules.
I take issue with some of what you call "God's law". It is good to teach kids to be civil towards others, but they should not be forced to accept everyone. If someone treats them like dirt, they should be free to shun that person. Nobody loves their neighbor as much as they love themself, no matter what they tell you. It's not possible, just based on survival instinct alone. And of course #4 is only appropriate for private schools where the parent knows in advance that a religious belief will be forced on their child.
We can't see the damage done to repressed kids as easily as we can see the bad behavior of unrestricted kids, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored. All you have 'proven' is that you care less about someone's problem if it doesn't personally affect or bother you.
Religion, especially for kids, boils down to fear of hell. Despite your attempt to ascribe this fear to me, as if nobody else ever felt it, it remains one of the primary motivators of faith, especially for kids, who are more impressionable and easily scared.
The difference between religious fear and the fear of the police is that the standards the police set are far more objective and reasonable. Religion tells you that if you lie one time, you deserve eternal torment. I know you personally don't believe in eternal torment, but you seem to be in the minority of christians on this one, my friend. Your religious brethren aren't going to give up such an effective motivational tool so easily.
02 Feb 06
Originally posted by windmillhave a cry. youll feel better
during my primary school years i had a racist primary school teacher.not too sure why he wasn't booted out,cause if i had a child going to a school like that i proberbly would have walked in there and gave him the SMASH!
the point of this is rather weird as the next school i went to was ...[text shortened]... .
i tried in the debates forum but this may get more traction here.
02 Feb 06
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Originally posted by The Chess ExpressSorry about that. I didn't mean to get dogmatic. 😀
Yeah, about that. You weren't being dogmatic; that was the point. Someone may go to hell?
Jesus should be considered a good friend.
Sounds too much like a Doobie Brothers song. Besides, doesn't quite jibe with the whole blood-as-high-as-a-horse's-bridle thing.
02 Feb 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemThe worst fundamentalists insist that all kids do anything that any adult says, as if the whole religious community were their parents. The worst teachers expect kids to just listen to them yammer on for several hours without making any kind of noise. Then they send them off to be punished for 'talking in class' or 'talking out of turn' or 'horseplay'. These types give kids the message that learning is a passive activity that only takes place in brick prisons on strict schedules.
I always did enjoy a good class fight! Damn, that teacher just cramped my style. Just cause his little sissy kid couldn't take a good beating.
The worst fundamentalists insist that all kids do anything that any adult says, as if the whole religious community were their parents. The worst teachers expect kids to just listen to them yammer on for sev ...[text shortened]... ethren aren't going to give up such an effective motivational tool so easily.
This actually pretty much describes my experience growing up—in public school! Didn’t take me long (well, actually, it did) to figure our that the phrase, “You need to learn to respect authority” meant, “You need to learn to obey without question.” Come to think of it, I never did learn that principle too well...
We once sent one of our kids to a “Christian” school: their particular religious emphasis turned out to be “spare the rod and spoil the child.” (I do not extrapolate from this to all religious schools, by any means.) The least “offense” was an viewed as an opportunity to put that philosophy into practice (I’m serious)—my son’s particular moral failing was “talking too loud.”
We did get some relief when I suggested that “spare the rod and spoil the teacher” might be an appropriate approach... We soon pulled him out anyway. Today he’s a successful and dedicated teacher and coach in a public school system.
We can't see the damage done to repressed kids as easily as we can see the bad behavior of unrestricted kids, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.
My wife for several years taught “troubled kids” (those kicked out of regular school for guns, knives, drugs, etc.). Almost universally, those kids had no self-respect because they and never been treated with any respect—and so respected no one else. She did a lot of work to undo fear-based and repressive education (again, almost exclusively in public schools). But she couldn’t do that with either a “touchy-feely” approach on the one hand, or rules-based bondage on the other. One of her particular approaches was to negotiate “contracts” with kids:
“How about this? if you x, then I’ll [tutor you to pass the state exams for graduation; whatever].”
“That’s not fair. I shouldn’t have to do x.”
“Well, what do you think is fair?”
“How about if I do y?”
“Okay. That’s fair. But I’m going to hold you to it.”
Pretty soon another student would say: “Can I negotiate a contract with you too?”
“Okay. What do you suggest?”
Of course, that kind of individualized approach is time-intensive, and is difficult to bring off in large classrooms with high student-teacher ratios. But then, that system had already failed for these kids.
BTW, where I live, the private schools (including the religious ones) are able to skim the top of the crop. They dump the “trouble-makers” quicker than the public schools. They are also very expensive, often 20-30K per year. I’m not criticizing them for that. I once lived in a community where people actually made contributions to the public schools to keep them top-flight. In other words, the people who lived in that community recognized a responsibility for the children’s education that went beyond the tax base. Two of my children went through that school system in Junior and Senior High School (including my son who had been in the “Christian” school). They received far better educations that I did.
The main problem with the public schools is that we, as adults, too often expect them to educate our children as cheaply as they can—and that’s it. The main problem with the private schools is that they mostly educate those whose parents can afford to pay a lot more than the public schools cost in tax dollars. In the end, it’s a bit like public health: if only those who can afford it get inoculated against communicable diseases, everybody else eventually gets sick.
02 Feb 06
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHOriginally posted by The Chess Express
Yeah, about that. You weren't being dogmatic; that was the point. Someone may go to hell?
Sounds too much like a Doobie Brothers song. Besides, doesn't quite jibe with the whole blood-as-high-as-a-horse's-bridle thing.
Sorry about that. I didn't mean to get dogmatic.
Yeah, about that. You weren't being dogmatic; that was the point. Someone may go to hell?
I was referring to this verse.
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
None of us know what God’s judgments are even though we all preach about what God will do. God knows us better than we know ourselves. I was simply erring on the side of caution.
Originally posted by The Chess Express
Jesus should be considered a good friend.
Sounds too much like a Doobie Brothers song.
I was thinking more along the lines of
“Whaaaat a friend we have in Jeeeeesus…..Allllll our sins and grief to bear….."
Besides, doesn't quite jibe with the whole blood-as-high-as-a-horse's-bridle thing
I tend to gravitate more to these sorts of verses…
Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord; thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Lam 3:22 It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
02 Feb 06
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Originally posted by vistesdYou bring up a good point. The public schools aren't able to expel troubled kids as quickly as private schools, so it's misleading to claim that private school children are better behaved just because of religious teaching. I also agree that over-strictness is just as much of a problem when employed by a secular teacher.
The worst fundamentalists insist that all kids do anything that any adult says, as if the whole religious community were their parents. The worst teachers expect kids to just listen to them yammer on for several hours without making any kind of noise. Then they send them off to be punished for 'talking in class' or 'talking out of turn' or 'horseplay'. Th rd it get inoculated against communicable diseases, everybody else eventually gets sick.