20 Aug 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterSo those verses :
Matt 23:23-24
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
NKJV
Matt 23:25-26
25 "W ...[text shortened]... first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
NKJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. (Matthew 23:23-27 KJV)
show that Christ is saying that
"works" (holiness) is not a means to salvation.
Can you explain that clearly? To me the passage you quoted says nothing along those lines. To that passage condemns what YOU believe, that there is such a thing as once saved always saved. The Pharisees were HOLY ON THE OUTSIDE, THEY APPEARED TO BE HOLY, THEY WERE MOUTH WORSHIPPERS, PRAISED GOD WITH THEIR MOUTH.
The Pharisees did not do good works that Christ spoke of .. such as the love, charity and compassion for the poor and needy.
Originally posted by lemon limeYes .. always a good verse to keep in mind.
Not commenting on anyone else here, but I'm always having to remind myself of this:
Matthew 7:13-14
Some time ago sonship said that those that Christ would 'save' from the tribulation would be the vast majority of the Christians. From the time of Christ to now that would be many many billions of people.
Now thats a pretty broad gate.
A couple verses down there is another very important verse:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21 KJV)
Those who do the will of God are the chosen ones, not everyone who claims to be Christian.
21 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999"The Pharisees did not do good works that Christ spoke of .. such as the love, charity and compassion for the poor and needy."
So those verses :
[i]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees ...[text shortened]... d works that Christ spoke of .. such as the love, charity and compassion for the poor and needy.
And you pre-suppose that no one here does these things either. There's not much love in such a presupposition, now, is there? How far do *your* "works" take you?
21 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipIndeed.My eternal life is between me and God.
But there is a time to preach as you do and there is a time to make a [b]"good confession" like Jesus did before Pontius Pilate. And that is speaking of your personal experience with God.
"Fight the good fight of the faith; lay hold on the eternal life, to which you were called an ...[text shortened]... /b] of having eternal life from God ?
Are you ashamed to speak of what God has given you ?
Especially while assuming that others here who are Christian are not doing these works (which, by the way, are *evidence* of your salvation, NOT a pre-requisite). In fact, I've not seen any evidence that Rajk has any works either.
I would say to him do not go slamming others' works because you have no evidence of them and then refuse to give evidence of your own. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not a good Christian doctrine.
21 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999"Those who do the will of God are the chosen ones, not everyone who claims to be Christian."
Yes .. always a good verse to keep in mind.
Some time ago sonship said that those that Christ would 'save' from the tribulation would be the vast majority of the Christians. From the time of Christ to now that would be many many billions of people.
Now thats a pretty broad gate.
A couple verses down there is another very important verse:
[b]Not ...[text shortened]... b]
Those who do the will of God are the chosen ones, not everyone who claims to be Christian.
You do realize, I hope, that in order for your testimony to be complete, you should also show how the Will of God is manifest in you. Otherwise, your testimony has exactly zero weight. "Do as I say, not as I do" is not good Christian doctrine.
21 Aug 14
Originally posted by RBHILLExactly.
How stupid are you. You shouldn't say it's between you and God. You should tell people how to get to heaven and what they need to do so it shouldn't be between you and God! The gospel is to be shared! Jesus didn't just come for you!
If you can get to heaven with Good deeds then Jesus came to earth for nothing.
It's always been by faith. Abraham was an i ...[text shortened]... And Abraham was before the Law! Abraham believed God and he was made righteous. Genesis: 12:1-3.
21 Aug 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999The testimony of Paul, and therefore *most* of the New Testament, would not be worth the paper it's written on without the inclusion of how he came to be saved on the road to Damascus.
Im ashamed of people like you who call yourself Christian and yet you cannot seem to support the teachings of Christ. In fact there is one of your kind who called the teachings of Christ 'crap' imagine that!
Im here to play chess mostly. I play on average 90 games concurrently. Thats far more than all you Christians combined, who spend all day criticizin ...[text shortened]... tent. The JWs have more truth that Christ preached than you 'once saved always saved' believers.
I think you're rather full of yourself, and you give NO one here the benefit of your Christian support. These people you mention are just those who have also used some of the verses you believe to make some other point. Furthermore, you ASSUME that everyone's works here are somehow less than yours and that YOUR walk is somehow more important than their walk. You'll forgive us if we treat that opinion as the fluffed up narcissistic talk it is without some fuller, more complete testimony. Yes, you "talk the talk", but we all have YET to see your testimony of how you "walk the walk". Frankly, I'm not seeing a lot of "following Christ's commandments" from you. Even the ones that SHOULD be easy, like showing love for your Christian brothers, are blatantly ignored by you, in fact, you heap derision upon them. I find it hard to believe that there is such a perfect commandment-following Christian behind the persona you project here, one who seemingly finds it difficult to follow even the simplest of His commandments. I'm really not sure "envy" is the correct word.
And you wonder why we scoff at your heretofore not fully revealed testimony. It's because it is woefully inadequate.
21 Aug 14
Originally posted by josephwWhen you ask a question worth responding to I will respond.
Rajk's reply to KingOnPoint on the previous page.
[b]"I answered and you ignored the answer and have not responded to this day."
Well Rajk, why won't you reply to my post? Scared?[/b]
I respond to matters pertaining to the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles.
I do not respond to questions of a personal nature.
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Originally posted by Rajk999You would not understand.
So those verses :
[i]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees ...[text shortened]... d works that Christ spoke of .. such as the love, charity and compassion for the poor and needy.
I see now that Christ has become a stumbling block to you.
You cannot see past works and law.
You have no clue to what the Grace of God is all about.
You also clearly do not understand what a gift is.
The reason I keep saying you are still under the law is because you are. The law was made to bring sin alive and condemn people, not save them.
That is why you are so transfixed with works.
Until you come to the end of yourself and receive Christ as your ransom for sin, you will remain under bondage.
No one here is attacking you, they are simply beating you up with the law. That was it's purpose, to show you it is impossible to be saved by works.
All you have to do is repent ( stop trying to save yourself by works), receive Jesus as Lord of your life and receive eternal redemption.
That is something to celebrate. It should cause you to love the Lord Jesus all the more.
It should cause you to live in the new nature, and want to do good works out of love and thanksgiving, not to earn salvation.
That has already been paid for, you are free from the curse of the law.
You and many others think it is a free license to sin, I am NOT saying that!
You can be stupid and sin, God won't be mad and curse you, because your sin is paid for, past, present and future.
But if you continue in sin, as I said, God won't punish you, BUT Satan WILL.
To sin is giving him permission to enslave you and destroy you in this life, but he cannot touch you in the spirit part of you. That is, IF you belong to Christ.
I will give you all the references to what I just stated if you wish....
21 Aug 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterWell your post is getting personal as you are referring to ME personally. You have no idea who I am. Anyway I will not post again on this thread.
You would not understand.
I see now that Christ has become a stumbling block to you.
You cannot see past works and law.
You have no clue to what the Grace of God is all about.
You also clearly do not understand what a gift is.
The reason I keep saying you are still under the law is because you are. The law was made to bring sin alive and conde ...[text shortened]... ou belong to Christ.
I will give you all the references to what I just stated if you wish....
I am happy to discuss the Bible and the doctrine of Christ, but I have no intention of getting involved in personal discussions about people and what or who they are ... sorry. I discuss peoples beliefs only not their personal lives.
You do not have the ability to drag me down into the OSAS precipice which you people have found yourselves so stop trying.
21 Aug 14
Originally posted by Rajk999What a cop out. Personal?
Well your post is getting personal as you are referring to ME personally. You have no idea who I am. Anyway I will not post again on this thread.
I am happy to discuss the Bible and the doctrine of Christ, but I have no intention of getting involved in personal discussions about people and what or who they are ... sorry. I discuss peoples beliefs only n ...[text shortened]... y to drag me down into the OSAS precipice which you people have found yourselves so stop trying.
"I am happy to discuss the Bible and the doctrine of Christ,.."
That's just a lie Rajk. You avoid like the plague any references to salvation by grace and not of works, and only refer to verses relating to the law.
Can't you figure out the difference between law and grace?
21 Aug 14
Originally posted by josephwThat is not true. Ask a question, or start a thread pertaining to law or grace and I will join in the discussion. I back off when questions become personal.
What a cop out. Personal?
[b]"I am happy to discuss the Bible and the doctrine of Christ,.."
That's just a lie Rajk. You avoid like the plague any references to salvation by grace and not of works, and only refer to verses relating to the law.
Can't you figure out the difference between law and grace?[/b]
What is your question?
22 Aug 14
Originally posted by checkbaiterYou have asked me this many times and I have replied. Anyway ...
So is a Christian saved by faith or not?
There are several meanings of the term 'saved'. If by 'saved' you mean eternal life then I will let James respond:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. .. O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:14-24 KJV)
The answer from James is that BOTH faith and works are necessary for justification.
Christ also 'saved' all of mankind from the wages of sin which is death. All men would have died because of sin but Christ paid the price for sin by his own death. Now those who believe in Christ, and that means to follow his commandments will receive the reward of eternal life.
Let me know if you want more references.