09 Sep 09
Originally posted by daniel58That's right. I'm glad you've learned something.
Then therefore my case is rested and you cannot kill yourself
You cannot kill anyone, not even your enemies, not even yourelf. It's a crime against god.
Anyone trying to defend the holy land with blod are criminals, in the eye of god.
09 Sep 09
Originally posted by FabianFnasWhen Is War Justified?
That's right. I'm glad you've learned something.
You cannot kill anyone, not even your enemies, not even yourelf. It's a crime against god.
Anyone trying to defend the holy land with blod are criminals, in the eye of god.
The moral theory of the "just-war" or "limited-war" doctrine begins with the presumption which binds all Christians: We should do no harm to our neighbors. Just-war teaching has evolved as an effort to prevent war. Only if war cannot be rationally avoided does the teaching then seek to restrict and reduce its horrors. It does this by establishing a set of rigorous conditions which must be met if the decision to go to war is to be morally permissible. Such a decision, especially today, requires extraordinarily strong reasons for overriding the presumption in favor of peace and against war. The conditions for a just war are as follows:
Just cause. War is permissible only to confront "a real and certain danger," i.e., to protect innocent life, to preserve conditions necessary for decent human existence and to secure basic human rights.
Competent authority. War must be declared by those with responsibility for public order, not by private groups or individuals.
Comparative justice. In essence: Which side is sufficiently "right" in a dispute, and are the values at stake critical enough to override the presumption against war? Do the rights and values involved justify killing? Given techniques of propaganda and the ease with which nations and individuals either assume or delude themselves into believing that God or right is clearly on their side, the test of comparative justice may be extremely difficult to apply.
Right intention. War can be legitimately intended only for the reasons set forth above as a just cause.
Last resort. For resort to war to be justified, all peaceful alternatives must have been exhausted.
Probability of success. This is a difficult criterion to apply, but its purpose is to prevent irrational resort to force or hopeless resistance when the outcome of either will clearly be disproportionate or futile.
Proportionality. This means that the damage to be inflicted and the costs incurred by war must be proportionate to the good expected by taking up arms.
Because of the destructive capability of modern technological warfare, the principle of proportionality (and that of discrimination) takes on special significance. Today it becomes increasingly difficult to make a decision to use any kind of armed force, however limited initially in intention and in the destructive power of the weapons employed, without facing at least the possibility of escalation to broader, or even total, war and to the use of weapons of horrendous destructive potential.
"Indeed, if the kind of weapons now stocked in the arsenals of the great powers were to be employed to the fullest, the result would be the almost complete reciprocal slaughter of one side by the other, not to speak of the widespread devastation that would follow in the world and the deadly after-effects resulting from the use of such weapons" (Pastoral Constitution, #80). To destroy civilization as we know it by waging such a "total war" as today it could be waged would be a monstrously disproportionate response to aggression on the part of any nation.
Just response to aggression must also be discriminate; it must be directed against unjust aggressors, not against innocent people caught up in a war not of their making. The Council therefore issued its memorable declaration: "Any act of war aimed indiscriminately at the destruction of entire cities or of extensive areas along with their population is a crime against God and man himself. It merits unequivocal and unhesitating condemnation."
Side by side with the just-war theory throughout Christian history has been the tradition of nonviolence. One of the great nonviolent figures was St. Francis of Assisi.
While the just-war teaching has clearly been in possession for the past 1,500 years of Catholic thought, the "new moment" in which we find ourselves sees the just-war teaching and nonviolence as distinct but interdependent methods of evaluating warfare. They diverge on some specific conclusions, but they share a common presumption against the use of force as a means of settling disputes. Both find their roots in the Christian theological tradition; each contributes to the full moral vision we need in pursuit of a human peace. We believe the two perspectives support and complement one another, each preserving the other from distortion.
from Catholic Update's condensation of The Challenge of Peace: God's Promise and Our Response, the U.S. Bishops' 1983 historic pastoral on war and peace.
13 Sep 09
Originally posted by FabianFnasThnx Fabs for taking up the slack. I've been away...
That's right. I'm glad you've learned something.
You cannot kill anyone, not even your enemies, not even yourelf. It's a crime against god.
Anyone trying to defend the holy land with blod are criminals, in the eye of god.
I hope he learned something, Did you learn something Dan? Being 18,having a size 13 foot and coming from TEXAS doesn't sound like a good mix. And Catholic to boot! Please prove me wrong and show that you understand what me and Fabs are trying to explain. It is a great act of humility to tolerate, maybe even love your enemies. Peace Bro'
16 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by karoly aczel1. I do love my enemies, 2. Do you think abortion is murder?
Thnx Fabs for taking up the slack. I've been away...
I hope he learned something, Did you learn something Dan? Being 18,having a size 13 foot and coming from TEXAS doesn't sound like a good mix. And Catholic to boot! Please prove me wrong and show that you understand what me and Fabs are trying to explain. It is a great act of humility to tolerate, maybe even love your enemies. Peace Bro'
17 Sep 09
Originally posted by daniel581. Do you really? Like not from afar ,but when they are near you? If you do you are truly great.
1. I do love my enemies, 2. Do you think abortion is murder?
2.Abortion is abortion. Murder is murder. I do believe women should have the right to choose but its just not as simple as that. I have some very strong views about abortion and how it shouldn't be so easy to do,however ,because it is the womans body, I believe this debate should be left mainly to the women. Dont you?
17 Sep 09
Originally posted by karoly aczelNo, what is wrong is wrong.
1. Do you really? Like not from afar ,but when they are near you? If you do you are truly great.
2.Abortion is abortion. Murder is murder. I do believe women should have the right to choose but its just not as simple as that. I have some very strong views about abortion and how it shouldn't be so easy to do,however ,because it is the womans body, I believe this debate should be left mainly to the women. Dont you?