Reason and faith???

Originally posted by Coletti
Thank you.

I can't really say that non-theistic worldviews are irrational so much as they are insufficient to explain meaning and morality. Rationalism is by definition a rational non-religious worldview. But it seems to be absent any axiom for justifying knowledge - no epistemic starting point.

And if Christianity is false, or God does not exist, ...[text shortened]... eem to allow for objective meaning and morality.

Did that answer your question?

"Choice" is indeed the wrong word. I have never yet met anyone who seriously doubts whether, for example, other people exist.

The scope of what cannot be seriously doubted is much wider than cogito ergo sum. That, for example, that "the world exists", is built into our shared language; it is part of framework. It is evident in everything we do or say.

Wittgenstein used to tell a story of two philosophers shouting and pointing at a tree. A passer-by asked what they were doing. "We are arguing about whether that tree exists," said one of the philosophers. The passer-by looked at them as if they were mad. And quite right, too.

Originally posted by dottewell
I'm sorry, but this just seems like your usual mix of jargon-laden, dodgy reasoning.

You can't use an analogy with logic. The reason you can't "prove logic is true" (or false) is that it is "built in", as it were; it is part of the framework we operate in. The same is not true of God.

You also say that to prove the existence of God would require "a p on't know. Should we? No. That's copping out; it's not what we are here for.

Just a question - when you say that logic is "built in", are you referring to the human mind/way of thinking or the Universe itself?

EDIT: Also, is it just me or does this seem like a debate between two Kantians - one Christian and the other atheist?

Originally posted by dottewell
Can we chose to believe whatever we want? I don't know. Should we? No. That's copping out; it's not what we are here for.

Surely every possible explanation of what we are here for is copping out?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Surely every possible explanation of what we are here for is copping out?

Searching for truth is a virtue.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Just a question - when you say that logic is "built in", are you referring to the human mind/way of thinking or the Universe itself?

EDIT: Also, is it just me or does this seem like a debate between two Kantians - one Christian and the other atheist?

It was a figure of speech; roughly, built into our language. Better just to say it's truth is something we cannot meaningfully doubt.

I am not, in any sense, a Kantian.

Originally posted by dottewell
I am not, in any sense, a Kantian.

That depends on your answer the first question in my post.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
That depends on your answer the first question in my post.

See my edit.

Trust me, I'm not.

Originally posted by dottewell
Better just to say it's truth is something we cannot meaningfully doubt.

Funny - now you sound like Descartes. 🙂

Only, Descartes did doubt the validity of reason itself...

In any case, all the talk of in-built logic and a priori propositions reminded me of Kant. Oh well...

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Funny - now you sound like Descartes. 🙂

Only, Descartes did doubt the validity of reason itself...

In any case, all the talk of in-built logic and a priori propositions reminded me of Kant. Oh well...

doubting the validity of reason?
Sounds like a christian ploy to me. You guys don't seem to like logic, especially when applied to your god....

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Funny - now you sound like Descartes. 🙂

Only, Descartes did doubt the validity of reason itself...

In any case, all the talk of in-built logic and a priori propositions reminded me of Kant. Oh well...

Can I point you towards Wittgenstein's On Certainty and Philosophical Investigations?

You seem a little confused. Philosophy didn't end with Kant.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
doubting the validity of reason?

First Meditation. Read the bit where he rejects Arithmetic and Geometry.

Sounds like a christian ploy to me. You guys don't seem to like logic, especially when applied to your god....

On the contrary, Catholicism has a long history of promoting philosophical enquiry and discussion.

EDIT: Karol Wojtyla (before he became JPII) was a Professor of Philosophy in Krakow (or was it Wadowice - I forget).

EDIT2: It was Lublin. He taught philosophy at the seminary in Krakow before that.

Originally posted by dottewell
Can I point you towards Wittgenstein's On Certainty and Philosophical Investigations?

Not a fan of the Tractatus?

Where/How does Wittgenstein say that logic is built in to our language?

You seem a little confused. Philosophy didn't end with Kant.

It almost did. 😉

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Not a fan of the Tractatus?

Where/How does Wittgenstein say that logic is built in to our language?

[b]You seem a little confused. Philosophy didn't end with Kant.

It almost did. 😉[/b]

He wouldn't have put it quite like that, but in both the above (and also Remarks on the Foundations of Mathematics) made clear that he thought logical terms, propositions, sentences did not have some magical property but were language-games like any other.

Unfortunately I don't carry them around with me...

I admire the Tractatus much as I admire the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
The roman empire lasted until 476AD (as a conservative date, apparently you can have it right up until 1493, depending on yuor definition), although became Christian around 380AD. Way, way after the time of Christ or any of his direct followers. Hardly "bringing the roman empire to its knees".

Obviously my primary point has gone flying by you like a grease laden bowel movement after all you can eat Grande Burrito night at Pablo's Taco Palace and Donkey Emporium.

Still, you're quite right of course, there were a mulitude of reasons for the gradual decline of the Roman Empire. One could even argue that it never really fell. However, Christianity certainly contributed to the ultimate division and collapse.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
Still, you're quite right of course, there were a mulitude of reasons for the gradual decline of the Roman Empire. One could even argue that it never really fell. However, Christianity certainly contributed to the ultimate division and collapse.

Reading Gibbon?