03 Jun 08
Originally posted by PsychoPawnStandards are state-wide now. You can go to any state's Dept. of Educ. web site and see their standards. That said, some are generic enough that schools may have leeway on how the standards are met. For example, in states like Wisconsin the standards are articulated for grades 4, 8, and 12, and it is up to the schools or other governing bodies to decide how those standards are broken down over the 4-year span. But I think there are a lot of similarities between states because textbook publishers only want to make as few versions as possible of any text, and some schools are focused on fidelity to the text.
Part of the problem with American schools is the lack of global standards. There is a widespread view in the US that education standards are a local decision so there isn't any real national standard of what is taught other than some pretty general things from what I understand.
There are some benefits to this, but the problem is you get a wide differ ...[text shortened]... nding on where they went to school and whether their school district had good or bad standards.
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadthat would be the same as buying candy from a guy that makes candy using slave labour. if you don't boycott the institutions you see unfit, you only help in keeping them alive. what lesson are you giving your child? it is ok to approve people doing bad things as long as we benefit from them doing bad things?
But then keeping him away from having fun with his friends in the hope of sheltering him from the worlds problems might not be a good idea either. He lives in a society full of religion as well as a significant amount of religious segregation, and also racial segregation (apartheid is gone but racism is far from dead).
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziAnd most boycotts of companies using child slave labor simply result in the children going hungry.
that would be the same as buying candy from a guy that makes candy using slave labour.
if you don't boycott the institutions you see unfit, you only help in keeping them alive.
As I said, I live in a religious world. If I boycotted every institution with religion I would have to go live on a desert Island.
what lesson are you giving your child? it is ok to approve people doing bad things as long as we benefit from them doing bad things?
Hopefully I am teaching him to be able to survive in a world where bad people live. My child would not be benefiting from someone doing a bad thing anyway. The camping trip is primarily about camping not prayer, and the only 'bad thing' that I was complaining about was the discrimination they were making.
03 Jun 08
It's interesting that in probably one of the most religious countries in the world that religion and public schools just don't seem to work.
Yet in my neck of the woods - Australia - which you would not call all that religious (even those pesky Queenslanders) we have no problem with religion in public schools. In fact, it's commonly taught as a subject in the school curriculum.
My kids have RE classes - that's Religious Education.
And me, a raving atheist!
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by amannionWe had RE too. I have absolutely no problem at all with religious education in schools. In fact, I actually believe it to be strongly desirable. Children should have a reasonable understanding of religions and religiousity. If they, later in life decide to become religion, that's fine. However, not equipping children with a knowledge of the various facets of the world they live in is bad too.
It's interesting that in probably one of the most religious countries in the world that religion and public schools just don't seem to work.
Yet in my neck of the woods - Australia - which you would not call all that religious (even those pesky Queenslanders) we have no problem with religion in public schools. In fact, it's commonly taught as a subject in ...[text shortened]... urriculum.
My kids have RE classes - that's Religious Education.
And me, a raving atheist!
We had religious education in my school, and whilst I did find it deathly boring, I had some interesting debates with one of my teachers about the existence of God. Looking back on it, she was simply using the "God of the gaps" argument.
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by PsychoPawnWho has the right to dictate to anyone when and where they can pray?
Show me the actual evidence of [b]causation (correlation is NOT causation).
You say you aren't for a theocracy, yet you regret prayer being taken out of public schools (as it should have been)?[/b]
Who was it that decided to remove the expression of faith from the public forum? And why?
It's all about reconstruction. The public school system was designed to educate. but is used as a tool to indoctrinate the masses. The federal department of public instruction was created to oversee and subvert local control of the education of our children. It's a waste of money as evidenced by the it's failure to do the the job.
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by amannionI did RE in school. It was boring, and I objected to them teaching as 'fact' something that was so obviously nonsense. I have no problem with children learning about the various religions but to be indoctrinated with a specific religion in school is wrong. Luckily I was an atheist by then wasn't about to be swayed.
My kids have RE classes - that's Religious Education.
My RE text book claimed that we humans are superior to animals because animals do not think. I had lots of pets as a child and knew that to be an outright falsehood.
Much more useful would have been a history of the Bible, or a history of Christianity. To many Christians have no idea where the Bible comes from. There are even people who think King James wrote it.
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by kirksey957Couldn't you tell I was being facetious?
You say we are the worst nation on earth and then you say we are the greatest.
What exactly do you hope having prayer in school will do?
Having prayer in school isn't the answer. The removal of prayer wasn't either. There is no single cause for the decline of morals in this culture.
When war is waged against an enemy it is fought on many fronts. So it is also when a society begins to decline. It's cause is the disintegration of what is good in it's traditions and institutions.
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by josephwI didn't say anyone should be dictating when and where they can pray. The public schools are not allowed to LEAD prayer or allot time dedicated for everyone to pray. If a child wants to stop paying attention to class and pray then they can - as long as they don't disturb the class.
Who has the right to dictate to anyone when and where they can pray?
Who was it that decided to remove the expression of faith from the public forum? And why?
It's all about reconstruction. The public school system was designed to educate. but is used as a tool to indoctrinate the masses. The federal department of public instruction was created to over ...[text shortened]... on of our children. It's a waste of money as evidenced by the it's failure to do the the job.
It's not a removal of the expression of faith from a public forum, it's the prevention of a state organization establishing religion by making students take time to pray.
Prayer sanctioned by public schools is a violation of the first amendment of the constitution.
I would say having the public school system enforce prayer IS indoctrinating the masses - hence why it violates the constitution!!
If parents want their kids to pray before they start class, then they can teach them to and/or lead them in a prayer before they go to school. Nothing is stopping them.
If a child wants to take a minute to pray on their own - fine. I have no problem with that either.
Public schools dedicating time specifically for prayer is violating the constitution of our great country and is doing exactly that indoctrination that you seem to object to. The only difference is that it indoctrinates them into faith - something you agree with.
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by scottishinnzBut then many of us are not American.
Like grammar, for example?
For all the school bashing, it seems that many of the younger members here have far better grammar than their older counterparts.
I don't know everybodies ages but I think that a few of the best posters (when it comes to well thought out grammatically correct posts) are not so young and I think some of them are American.
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadsure, one view. and certainly is correct to pick your battles.
And most boycotts of companies using child slave labor simply result in the children going hungry.
[b]if you don't boycott the institutions you see unfit, you only help in keeping them alive.
As I said, I live in a religious world. If I boycotted every institution with religion I would have to go live on a desert Island.
what lesson are you ...[text shortened]... nd the only 'bad thing' that I was complaining about was the discrimination they were making.
that being said, correct me if i am wrong but does the discrimination you referred to has anything to do with your religion not being included in the ones that were excused from Christian prayers?
the bad thing about that camp in my opinion is the discrimination, but not the fact they didn't include atheism to the categories excused from an activity but because they only thought of making an activity to benefit one category of people. in my view you are mad for the wrong reason: because atheism wasn't mentioned to wich i should point that it is possible it's an honest mistake, they couldn't have possibly mentioned all religions that are excused from prayer because it would make a very long leaflet. instead they asked the parents to say they didn't want their child in prayer. no discrimination here
03 Jun 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadYes, I'm not trying to make any hard and fast distinction there, but more to point out that many of the older posters (remember schools were always better in the old days) do no better than the youngsters when it come to their ability to convey themselves in an error-free manner.
But then many of us are not American.
I don't know everybodies ages but I think that a few of the best posters (when it comes to well thought out grammatically correct posts) are not so young and I think some of them are American.
04 Jun 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziThey could quite easily have said 'non-Christian will be excused'.
they couldn't have possibly mentioned all religions that are excused from prayer because it would make a very long leaflet.
I was annoyed by it simply because they clearly want to take advantage of a school function to further their religion by proselytizing to children but they want to avoid the Muslims and Jews because they know there would be a serious backlash if they tried it with them.