Revelations 20:12

Originally posted by no1marauder
These are just assertions by you. Provide Scriptural support for them, preferably from the Gospels.

To which assertions are you objecting?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Completely off topic, but I'll bite, nonetheless. There is a contradiction in that No1 attempts to attribute entrance to Heaven with a list of acceptable works, a la Matthew 25. Juxtaposed with this, Matthew 23, the seven woes which lambaste the religious leaders for their trust in outward actions.

Now back to the topic, No1 is attempting to make a ca ...[text shortened]... the like, one is free to do so. Whatever label one wishes to use does not alter the facts.

You completely miss the point that the value of an act depends on the context, despite the fact that is obviously the point of the scripture you quoted.

A passage that illustrates that "works" might be judged worthless if done for shallow self-serving reasons (such as medium- to long-term financial gain) in no way suggests that works of genuine good to humanity, done for the right reasons, count for equally little in the final analysis. In fact it suggests the opposite.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I already did in a post you apparently only partially read:

Assuming the thief on the cross story isn't merely a later addition as many theologians believe (it is directly contradicted by the other Gospel versions), the following acts are analogus to his actions:

I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Again, Professor, what actions, performed by the thief, resulted in his salvation? If memory serves, he was on the cross for thieving, not feeding the poor, etc.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]A) The description of Judgment Day in Matthew 25 is not a parable
Oh, I see. So this was just an amusing antecdote about real sheep and actual goats. What are we quibbling about then, Professor No1?

C) What the religious leaders are doing in Matthew 23 is not what Jesus is describing in Matthew 25 as I have already pointed out.
They we u evildoers!'"

Them Gospels sure is tough to reckon aright, ain't they? Go figure.[/b]

Using a figure of speech inside a description of events that are supposed to actually occur does not change that description into a "parable". If I say it was raining cats and dogs when I took my LSAT, is it now a parable?

"Seemingly spiritual activities" is your gloss, not Jesus'. Jesus describes activities of mercy, charity and love to your fellow man in Matthew 25; these clearly contrast with sitting in the front rows or wearing nice clothes as described in Matthew 23. Is that distinction sooooooooooooooo difficult to grasp?

I suggest you really think about the passage you just quoted; your use of it in the context of this discussion seems like unintentional irony.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Again, Professor, what actions, performed by the thief, resulted in his salvation? If memory serves, he was on the cross for [b]thieving, not feeding the poor, etc.[/b]

I'm stunned that you're so obtuse. Read the passage; is he not comforting the sick/dying?

Originally posted by dottewell
You completely miss the point that the value of an act depends on the context, despite the fact that is obviously the point of the scripture you quoted.

A passage that illustrates that "works" might be judged worthless if done for shallow self-serving reasons (such as medium- to long-term financial gain) in no way suggests that works of genuine good to ...[text shortened]... ght reasons, count for equally little in the final analysis. In fact it suggests the opposite.

Not at all are these points missed. In fact, that is an underlying point to the entire conversation which is being entirely missed by No1. Namely, one cannot take any of the Scripture strictly at face value without consideration of the message between the lines, the intent behind the content.

To do so, one would (wrongly) assume that merely doing the work of the sheep of Matthew 25 would land one in Heaven, regardless of other affiliations. This is poppycock of the lowest possible thinking.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I'm stunned that you're so obtuse. Read the passage; is he not comforting the sick/dying?

What, you're signed up for Word-of-the-Day and were desperate for a place to work in obtuse? By your reckoning, Hitler landed in Heaven based on his efforts of finding a more humane means of exterminating the Jews. You're a piece of work.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
What, you're signed up for Word-of-the-Day and were desperate for a place to work in obtuse? By your reckoning, Hitler landed in Heaven based on his efforts of finding a more humane means of exterminating the Jews. You're a piece of work.

Huh? By your reckoning, Hitler could have said "I have faith in your grace, Jesus" and wound up in Heaven no matter how many millions he killed.

Here's the Luke passage 23:38-41

9 And one of the malefactors that were hanged railed on him, saying, Art not thou the Christ? save thyself and us.

40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, Dost thou not even fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Not at all are these points missed. In fact, that is an underlying point to the entire conversation which is being entirely missed by No1. Namely, one cannot take any of the Scripture strictly at face value without consideration of the message between the lines, the intent behind the content.

To do so, one would (wrongly) assume that merely doing the ...[text shortened]... in Heaven, regardless of other affiliations. This is poppycock of the lowest possible thinking.

What I am saying is based entirely on taking the scripture quoted in this thread at face value.

One does not need to believe in god to do a good act for good reasons.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Not at all are these points missed. In fact, that is an underlying point to the entire conversation which is being entirely missed by No1. Namely, one cannot take any of the Scripture strictly at face value without consideration of the message between the lines, the intent behind the content.

To do so, one would (wrongly) assume that merely doing the ...[text shortened]... in Heaven, regardless of other affiliations. This is poppycock of the lowest possible thinking.

If you cant take the scriptures at face value then they are open to different interpretations. as you interperate the scriptures with your current day knowledge and sensibilities does that mean that you take your values from the bible, or impose your values on it? just a thought.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
To which assertions are you objecting?

The ones in the post I was responding to obviously.

Originally posted by dottewell
What I am saying is based entirely on taking the scripture quoted in this thread at face value.

One does not need to believe in god to do a good act for good reasons.

That's exactly the point. One must have the ability to discern the difference between what is meant to be taken at face value, and what is imparting a deeper meaning. Otherwise, one will be left without eyes or hands, resting in a mental ward.

Originally posted by googlefudge
If you cant take the scriptures at face value then they are open to different interpretations. as you interperate the scriptures with your current day knowledge and sensibilities does that mean that you take your values from the bible, or impose your values on it? just a thought.

See my response to dottewell.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That's exactly the point. One must have the ability to discern the difference between what is meant to be taken at face value, and what is imparting a deeper meaning. Otherwise, one will be left without eyes or hands, resting in a mental ward.

Mental wards are full of people who "impart deeper meanings" to things that are meant to be taken at their most obvious and plain meaning.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That's exactly the point. One must have the ability to discern the difference between what is meant to be taken at face value, and what is imparting a deeper meaning. Otherwise, one will be left without eyes or hands, resting in a mental ward.

The meaning seems perfectly clear. It is entirely in accordance with simple (god-given, if you like) common sense.