Saved - Past, Present, Future

Originally posted by Rajk999
If you can?
Have a reference for that?

" The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work of what sort it is.

If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, BUT HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, yet so as through fire." [my emphasis]

Lets go after a passage or two from the book of James.
Here's a choice one -

"But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith without works is useless ?" (James 2:20)

Some MSS read "dead".

"So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself." (v.17)

"What is the proft, my brothers, if anyone says he has faith but does not have works ? Can that faith save him ?" (v.14)

Is there a contradiction here against the clear word of Ephesians 2:8?

No. If James is including the more full definition of transformation, sanctification, and conformation to the image of Christ as being "saved", there is no contradiction.

The result of the Christian with no evidencing living to correspond to his faith is to suffer loss, as we have seen in First Corinthians 3:14,15. Such a one is saved yet so as through fire though he will suffer the lose of reward.

James in speaking of the quite logical salvation of not only being forgiven but transformed to express Christ through the works that should accompany the new life.

The lose of reward, we may say, is the lose of being "saved" in this sense.

Who is the audience James is speaking to? It is an audience of Christians who have been begotten forever through God's regeneration. I know that because of James 1:18

"He brought us forth by the word of truth, purposing that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures." (James 1:18)

The ones whom James is exhorting about works are those who have already been brought forth as children of God. They HAVE been brought forth. They have already experienced the divine birth of regeneration.

They cannot be UNBORN. They cannot go back to NOT being born of God. They cannot go back to being NOT brought forth by the Father.

If they are normal, their faith should grow and grow to be more and more manifested in their living, in their works. This of course is important to God and to a normal Christian life.

And the growth and maturing process manifesting itself in works, James speaks of in terms be being saved.

This is an epistle emphasizing the works which must come out of the birth and growth. But we cannot say that Paul had a similar emphasis in First Corinthians. Paul expressed it somewhat differently. But the truth is the same.

James is not saying any man can be redeemed eternally through good works. But a Christian failing to grow once having believed into Christ and been brought forth by the word of truth, may postpone the salvation of transformation.

The works are the result of transformation, subjective sanctification, conformation, renewing of the mind.

Luther did not like the book of James. Luther tried to show that Galatians and James could not be in agreement. Luther was incorrect in this.

Originally posted by caissad4
🙄

Originally posted by Rajk999
If you can?
Have a reference for that?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have already give references. Do you believe I am lying?

Originally posted by sonship
The word [b]saved and the concept of salvation is used in the New Testament in more than just one way.

It is used as relating to the believer's passed. That is an an accomplished fact.

It is used in relation to the present as an ongoing process.

It is used in relation to a future time when it will occur.

In this thread I will deal w ...[text shortened]... wrongly.

Each example will be preceded by one of the words Past, Present, or Future.[/b]

Originally posted by Rajk999
You gave a reference for the statement you made :

'God wants you to do good works if you can"?

Sometimes "eternal life" or "life eternal" is spoken of as something to be received at the end of a long life pursuit. The sound of these passages can make it seem like no one should yet have confidence that he is saved.

For example -

Romans 2:7 - "To those who by endurance in good work seek glory and honor and incorruptibility, life eternal."

Admittedly, the sound of Paul's utterance here is that only after the seeking of glory, honor and incorruptibility is the seeker rewarded with life eternal.

As a matter of fact I believe that other passages on eternal life in the book of Romans carry this kind of sense.

Romans 5:21 - "In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The phrase "unto eternal life" has the sound of eternal life being the culmination or climax of an ongoing matter - Grace reigns through righteousness with a view to the final result of eternal life.

Both these passages convey the Christian moving towards a goal off in the future - eternal life.

This is quite logical. This divine life is imparted into the believer in seed like form. It requires growth and spreading. It requires the believer being more and more saturated with this life. This requires a life long maturation of this life until he is "swallowed up in life. So the eternal life is spoken of as the final climax.

Here is another passage in Romans conveying eternal life coming in the future -

Romans 6:22 - "But now, having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end, eternal life."


At present the believers are in the process of sanctification. Sanctification is moving towards an end, a goal. That goal, that climax is eternal life - "the end, eternal life".

In the immediately following sentence we this eternal life is still a gift. So both aspects of salvation are true. The believer can affirm from this basic book on Christian teaching, that he has received the gift of eternal life and that he is in a process with its end climaxing in eternal life.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus." (Rom. 6:23)

Now I come to a crucial question.

How LONG does God have with each saved person to bring him fully, completely, into salvation in its most complete sense ?


1.) He has the believer's life span during the church age.

2.) In addition to this He has 1,000 years during the millennial kingdom reward.

3.) In addition to this He may have some season of unknown duration following the millennial kingdom. This is called "a little while".

"And cast him [Satan] into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be loosed fro a little while." (Rev. 20:3)

"And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison." (Rev. 20:7)

I don't believe any Bible teacher knows with confidence how LONG this "little while" will be.

But if some saints are still not perfected to be conformed to the image of Christ by this time, maybe during this time after the millinnial God has additional time with them.

One thing is certain. Everyone who is saved will be eventually presented before the Father, not only positionally sanctified, but dispositionally as well. That is without blemish, without spot, without defect, "saved to sin no more".

"Even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy [both in position and in disposition. Both in standing and in character] and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself. "

Sooner or latter every one who is saved by Christ will be made LIKE Christ. If we cooperate it will be sooner. If we procrastinate we will cooperate eventually in a coming age. But the flavor will be different. That will not be the age of grace any longer.


By the time of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21 and 22 every saint of God has been thoroughly transformed, conformed, glorified, deified, built up into the living temple of God the corporate New Jerusalem.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You conveniently overlooked that I said it is obvious.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
"Those who are calling* upon the name of Jehovah will be saved" - Joel 2:32, quoted by Paul in Romans chapter 10:13

*literally "those who are evangelising".

New International Version
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

New Living Translation
But everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved, for some on Mount Zion in Jerusalem will escape, just as the LORD has said. These will be among the survivors whom the LORD has called.

English Standard Version
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

New American Standard Bible
"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

King James Bible
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be saved, for there will be an escape for those on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, as the LORD promised, among the survivors the LORD calls.

International Standard Version
And everyone who calls upon the name of the LORD will be delivered. For as the LORD has said, 'In Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, the survivors whom the LORD is calling.'"

NET Bible
It will so happen that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered. For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who survive, just as the LORD has promised; the remnant will be those whom the LORD will call.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. Those who escape will be on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem. Among the survivors will be those whom the LORD calls, as the LORD has promised.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And it shall come to pass that whoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall escape: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be salvation, as the LORD has said, and in those who are left, to whom the LORD shall have called.

King James 2000 Bible
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD has said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

American King James Version
And it shall come to pass, that whoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD has said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And it shall come to pass, that every one that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved: for in mount Sion, and in Jerusalem shall be salvation, as the Lord hath said, and in the residue whom the Lord shall call.

Darby Bible Translation
And it shall be that whosoever shall call upon the name of Jehovah shall be saved: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as Jehovah hath said, and for the residue whom Jehovah shall call.

English Revised Version
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as the LORD hath said, and among the remnant those whom the LORD doth call.

Webster's Bible Translation
And it shall come to pass, that whoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

World English Bible
It will happen that whoever will call on the name of Yahweh shall be saved; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as Yahweh has said, and among the remnant, those whom Yahweh calls.

Young's Literal Translation
And it hath come to pass, Every one who calleth in the name of Jehovah is delivered, For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there is an escape, As Jehovah hath said, And among the remnants whom Jehovah is calling!

Originally posted by sonship
Where Robbie ? And PLEASE don't cry "conspiracy!".

[b]New International Version
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

New Living Translation
But everyone who calls on the name o ...[text shortened]... is an escape, As Jehovah hath said, And among the remnants whom Jehovah is calling!

[/b]

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

oh jay have you been with me so long and yet you must ask show me the verse,

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/joe2.pdf

Hebrew interlinear, please note the use of the divine name, the tetragrammaton in verse 32.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
"Those who are calling* upon the name of Jehovah will be saved" - Joel 2:32, quoted by Paul in Romans chapter 10:13

*literally "those who are evangelising".

Originally posted by sonship

[b]oh jay have you been with me so long and yet you must ask show me the verse,

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/joe2.pdf

Hebrew interlinear, please note the use of the divine name, the tetragrammaton in verse 32.

My question does not concern the tetragrammation. It concerns your view that evangelizing is ...[text shortened]... 32, quoted by Paul in Romans chapter 10:13

*literally "those who are evangelising". [/quote][/b]

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved
For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, just as Jehovah has said,
The survivors whom Jehovah calls.” - Joel 2:32

I produce the following commentaries for your inspection.

Barnes commentary:
For in Mount Zion ... shall be deliverance Repentance and remissio ...[text shortened]... er it as an authoritative reference in itself and must therefore resort to citing other sources.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
"Those who are calling* upon the name of Jehovah will be saved" - Joel 2:32, quoted by Paul in Romans chapter 10:13

*literally "those who are evangelising".