10 Feb 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou're not part of God's Church. Nor do the great majority of Christians believe in the "Grace without works" theology. Just because YOU and the other Fundies here got it wrong, doesn't mean that most Christians have (they haven't).
Oh come on! Jesus's whole philosophy was based on the idea that the Holy Spirit would guide his church "into all truth" after he had gone. Infact , more than this he said he wouldn't actually have gone away (only physically) . Therefore what we must ask ourselves is whether Jesus and his father would have allowed his message to have been hijacked by S ...[text shortened]... sistent with the idea that God would just sit back and allow things to go so badly wrong.
10 Feb 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneLike I told you before, whether or not a given individual has overcome sin has absolutely no bearing on what Jesus meant when he said the following------------toOne------
We both know that I've stated my position to you countless times elsewhere. Why do you insist on lying about it? Like I told you before, whether or not a given individual has overcome sin has absolutely no bearing on what Jesus meant when he said the following:
[i]Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom o ...[text shortened]...
"And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever."
What you are saying is that this "given individual" is actually you!
It may have no bearing on what he said but it has a massive bearing on whether anyone will take you seriously on your position because if unless you can say that you have overcome sin 100% or even say something about how you are hoping one day to overcome sin completely then it's all just chaff in the wind to me and it will be to most people. If I really have to explain why to you then there's little point. Many reading this will know what I mean. I would sooner listen to other christians who are prepared to back up what they say with action and personal testimony than listen to a slippery customer like you who won't even say.
On top of this you have the cheek to throw the "hypocrite" label at me when you don't even see the connection between what you preach and how you live!!
As I have said , if what you are saying is important enough to listen to then back it up with the light of your own personal testimony. Otherwise quoting Jesus in this way and expecting anyone to take on your interpretation won't wash with anyone with any congruence.
10 Feb 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungSorry but you're going to have to explain how this is an example of God lying.
God lies ! For example,
[b]Thessalonians 2:11-12 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/b]
10 Feb 08
Originally posted by no1marauderWho said I believed in grace without works? The whole issue is covered amply in the NT by St Paul et al.
You're not part of God's Church. Nor do the great majority of Christians believe in the "Grace without works" theology. Just because YOU and the other Fundies here got it wrong, doesn't mean that most Christians have (they haven't).
10 Feb 08
Originally posted by no1marauderA Jesus who doesn't require acting in a certain way i.e. with kindness and compassion toward our fellow Man is a mockery of his own words ---no1---
KM: A jesus devoid of unconditional love who requires us to be perfected before we are saved by grace is a travesty of the Gospel.
A Jesus who doesn't require acting in a certain way i.e. with kindness and compassion toward our fellow Man is a mockery of his own words as recorded in the Synoptic Gospels. Find the word "grace" in Matthew 25.
Agreed.
10 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou believe works i.e. acts of kindness and compassion towards our fellow men are not necessary for salvation. Most Christians don't (as Jesus did not) including the members of the Church that St. Peter started on direct instructions from Jesus.
Who said I believed in grace without works? The whole issue is covered amply in the NT by St Paul et al.
10 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterActually I'm saying ANY given individual, which obviously includes me, and you for that matter. Why do you insist on twisting my position? Once again, perhaps you insist on twisting the truth, i.e. lying, because the truth doesn't serve your purpose. Instead you stoop to invoking the enemy of God, i.e. lies, to do your bidding.
Like I told you before, whether or not a given individual has overcome sin has absolutely no bearing on what Jesus meant when he said the following------------toOne------
What you are saying is that this "given individual" is actually you!
It may have no bearing on what he said but it has a massive bearing on whether anyone will take you serio cting anyone to take on your interpretation won't wash with anyone with any congruence.
I meant what I said, just as Jesus meant what He said. You seem to be compelled to twist everything to fit KM's worldview. Why is this?
If you don't like being a liar and hypocrite, then make the necessary changes. I have to believe that Jesus would want you to.
10 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneActually I'm saying ANY given individual, which obviously includes me, and you for that matter. ---ToOne----
Actually I'm saying ANY given individual, which obviously includes me, and you for that matter. Why do you insist on twisting my position? Once again, perhaps you insist on twisting the truth, i.e. lying, because the truth doesn't serve your purpose. Instead you stoop to invoking the enemy of God, i.e. lies, to do your bidding.
I meant what I said, jus hypocrite, then make the necessary changes. I have to believe that Jesus would want you to.
Wrong! It has a bearing for you and you only because it's your statement and your belief system and your interpretation. No-one is beholden to live by or be held account to any of your ideas about Jesus except you because they are your statements not mine. I am beholden to live by my interpretations and you yours.
This is the essence of hypocrisy. Do you talk the talk or can you walk the walk? If you can't walk your own talk then stop talking. I know you will say that it is Jesus's words and not yours but this is hardly the point because it's still YOUR intepretation of his words not anyone else's.
It's simply amazing that you can't understand why anyone would be interested in whether you can walk your own talk.
10 Feb 08
Originally posted by no1marauderYou don't understand the complexity of the works/grace issue. Have you really thought deeply about this? Grace and works are tied together but it is grace that saves and works follow from salvation . It is a simple matter of avoiding the trap of thinking that you can "earn" salvation by works rather than it being a gift of God.
You believe works i.e. acts of kindness and compassion towards our fellow men are not necessary for salvation. Most Christians don't (as Jesus did not) including the members of the Church that St. Peter started on direct instructions from Jesus.
Think about it , even an act of compassion is only possible in a human because God supplies a man with the ability and power to be compassionate. It's all a gift anyway. This is not to downplay compassion at all , it's just saying that it's foolish to use it as a bargaining chip at the table and think God will look at it and say "ohh....you are good enough to enter" Why? because he gave you the chip in the first place. It was never really yours to offer back to him.
You also forget that however good a life you lead it's not going to be perfect and as such will fall way short of God's perfect holiness. Thus you are gonna need grace anyway.
10 Feb 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterLook, I've heard this babble before. It contradicts Jesus' express words. YOU and a fairly small minority of Christians believe this; most don't. So your attempt to argue that "God wouldn't have let his message be misunderstood" doesn't support your theology; if anything, it refutes it.
You don't understand the complexity of the works/grace issue. Have you really thought deeply about this? Grace and works are tied together but it is grace that saves and works follow from salvation . It is a simple matter of avoiding the trap of thinking that you can "earn" salvation by works rather than it being a gift of God.
Think about it , eve ...[text shortened]... h will fall way short of God's perfect holiness. Thus you are gonna need grace anyway.
10 Feb 08
Originally posted by no1marauderFor some funny reason, I doubt that you are a reliable source for orthodox Christian belief... your 'man on the street' interviews notwithstanding.
Look, I've heard this babble before. It contradicts Jesus' express words. YOU and a fairly small minority of Christians believe this; most don't. So your attempt to argue that "God wouldn't have let his message be misunderstood" doesn't support your theology; if anything, it refutes it.
10 Feb 08
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHIf you can show me where the RCC supports the Lutheran doctrine of salvation without works (as Jesus defined them), go ahead. Or the Eastern Orthodox Church. Or the Calvinists. Or the Mormons. Or ..................................
For some funny reason, I doubt that you are a reliable source for orthodox Christian belief... your 'man on the street' interviews notwithstanding.
EDIT: Granted the Calvinists don't think works are relevant, but they believe in predestination which makes KM's central emphasis on free will irrelevant.
10 Feb 08
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Originally posted by knightmeisterHow about if I put it all in one place? Maybe it'll be simple enough for you to understand if it's all laid out for you.
Actually I'm saying ANY given individual, which obviously includes me, and you for that matter. ---ToOne----
Wrong! It has a bearing for you and you only because it's your statement and your belief system and your interpretation. No-one is beholden to live by or be held account to any of your ideas about Jesus except you because they are your sta u can't understand why anyone would be interested in whether you can walk your own talk.
1) TOO said: "...whether or not a given individual has overcome sin has absolutely no bearing on what Jesus meant..."
2) KM said: "What you are saying is that this "given individual" is actually you!"
3) TOO said: "Actually I'm saying ANY given individual, which obviously includes me, and you for that matter."
4) KM said: "Wrong!"
The fact remains that what Jesus meant is not in anyway dependent on ANY individual overcoming sin. Statement #1 is true. It does not necessarily mean me. It is not "wrong". It was said in the abstract and was meant in the abstract. Can you really not see how you've twisted what I said in an attempt to suit your purposes? Are you really so blind to the truth? If you can't understand this, is there any wonder that you have so much trouble with more complex ideas?
10 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI can see how taken out of context and interpreted in a certain way that it could be seen as self contradictory (Eg- Like saying "I am absolutely certain that there is no absolute truth" )
How about answering the question. I'll try to simplify it even more for you.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy in the following statement?
"The problem with your overall position on Christianity and Jesus is that you take a negative and attacking position."
However , this is a pedantic point because whilst I am taking you to issue on your position it is YOUR position that is an "anti- position" to start with. Just as Atheism is an expression of negative disbelief as opposed to positive belief , your position often entails picking at the bones of Christianity wherever you can.
You know as well as I do that the whole overall theme and pattern of our debates has been one of me DEFENDING Christianity from your attacks on it. I cannot attack your belief system because you haven't defined it clearly in personal terms or theological terms and have deflected any attempts I have made to quiz you on them (eg - you wouldn't say if you thought Christ was ressurected or not - I could ask you again but you wouldn't answer). So I can hardly attack something that hasn't been put out there yet as a postive framework of belief.
Let's test this . You have a clear idea of my theology , my personal struggle with sin etc . I have no idea whether you believe in miracles , the devil , Christ's second coming , your personal struggle with sin etc.
In addition , and this is the most important point , I am including a positive statment of my beliefs and what it means to me ALONGSIDE my criticisms . You are offering no such input.