See you in Hell

Originally posted by Coletti
I have no doubt in the ability of Christ to save. And I think that maybe what the Bible is saying when it speaks of certainty is certainty in the power of Christ to save any sinner. But that does not seem to translate to certainty in my personal salvation. Does that make sense?

I can honestly say I do not doubt Christ, but I do not always feel ...[text shortened]... mments? All are welcome but I am especially interested in what other Christians think about it.

I know exactly what you are talking about. There is certainly no reason to doubt the salvation that is in Christ. It is clear in that He is the only one that can save:

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I think that an issue that may cause doubt may be the issue of what we ourselves do in order to obtain this salvation. I know there are many that believe that that our good works will save us and others believe that it is only by faith, etc. There are also those that believe in the once saved, always saved gospel.

But the Bible says that no sin shall enter Heaven. The Bible also talks about confession of sin as well as a conscious turning away from sin.

This portion of scripure in 1 John 1 is very significant to me. ":5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

I believe that if there is no sin between me and God, then there is no reason to doubt my salvation. Often when I have started to doubt I would become quiet before the Lord and search my life. Very often when I would then confess this sin I would find the assurance coming back. I believe that the way in which I can retain this assurance is by making sure that my life is transparent before God. This I believe is a daily process.

Romans 6:22 - But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 7:1 - Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7 - For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

I believe that a daily striving towards holiness is also a neccessity.

Originally posted by Coletti
I have no doubt in the ability of Christ to save. And I think that maybe what the Bible is saying when it speaks of certainty is certainty in the power of Christ to save any sinner. But that does not seem to translate to certainty in my personal salvation. Does that make sense?

I can honestly say I do not doubt Christ, but I do not always feel ...[text shortened]... mments? All are welcome but I am especially interested in what other Christians think about it.

Think of someone who is absolutely convinced of his personal salvation.
Does that attitude strike you as quite presumptious?
It does me.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I know exactly what you are talking about. There is certainly no reason to doubt the salvation that is in Christ. It is clear in that He is the only one that can save:

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I think that an issue that may cause doubt may ...[text shortened]... s, but unto holiness.

I believe that a daily striving towards holiness is also a neccessity.

Thank you. I think that is what it means to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I suspect that the doubt is a necessary response to the presence of sin in me. As long as I have any sin, there will be some edge of doubt. But the process of sanctification comes with the "daily striving towards holiness." Even though I believe this is really the work of the Spirit within me - the "striving" - it will still feels like my efforts.

Maybe that edge of doubt is necessary because it gets me to examine my motives now and again to see if I am doing these things out of a gratitude, or a of a desire to earn merit. Or maybe it motivates me towards greater obedience (love of God and love of neighbor) as these are the clear fruits of saving faith.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Phi 2:12-13 ESV)

Originally posted by Coletti
Thank you. I think that is what it means to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I suspect that the doubt is a necessary response to the presence of sin in me. As long as I have any sin, there will be some edge of doubt. But the process of sanctification comes with the "daily striving towards holiness." Even though I believe this is really ...[text shortened]... who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
(Phi 2:12-13 ESV)[/quote]

Can you give me some insight into this comment, "The smarter one is the more likely they are to have doubt both in themselves and in God." As one can observe on this site, an arguement can be made to reason oneself out of Heaven so to speak.

I struggle with by beliefs daily. Increasingly as seemingly one tragedy after another strike my family and those close to me. I question the meaning if it all and sometimes wish that I could be assured that there is no after life. I'd rather have an eternity of nothing. The doubt remains and grows, despite this, I have a wonderful wife, I'm gainfully employed and I live a reasonably good life.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
Can you give me some insight into this comment, "The smarter one is the more likely they are to have doubt both in themselves and in God." As one can observe on this site, an arguement can be made to reason oneself out of Heaven so ...[text shortened]... l wife, I'm gainfully employed and I live a reasonably good life.

Did I say that: "The smarter one is the more likely they are to have doubt both in themselves and in God."

I may have.

I would agree the the smarter one is, the more difficult it can become to work out all the implications and complications of their belief system. It seems that the more you study it, them more you find flaws or inconsistencies. But I think it only seems this way at times. And smart people are better at sounding reasonable when they try to fool you. But a basic understanding of logic can help one see the difference between cow manure and caviar.

Ultimately - one can not reason themselves (correctly) into our out of heaven. I think logic will get you to the door, but God must pull you in. In other words - you can logically understand the gospel - but believing it takes faith. That is why I don't doubt the work of Christ - it is logical to me - but I sometimes question my faith because logic does not make me believe Christ saved me, only God can do that.

Originally posted by Coletti
Did I say that: "The smarter one is the more likely they are to have doubt both in themselves and in God."

I may have.

I would agree the the smarter one is, the more difficult it can become to work out all the implications and complications of their belief system. It seems that the more you study it, them more you find flaws or inconsistencies. B ...[text shortened]... uestion my faith because logic does not make me believe Christ saved me, only God can do that.

No you didn't say it an associate I've had a debate with did. He is frustratingly at peace with his own beliefs. Unfortunately he evades my questions as to how he came this point of equilibrium. I am curious as to what events lead him to his unshakeable belief. His answers are unsatisfying.

I'm looking for... something?

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
No you didn't say it an associate I've had a debate with did. He is frustratingly at peace with his own beliefs. Unfortunately he evades my questions as to how he came this point of equilibrium. I am curious as to what events lead him to his unshakeable belief. His answers are unsatisfying.

I'm looking for... something?

I see. Well I suppose it's possible he's worked out all the implications of his belief and made peace with them, or he's not smart enough to see some of the implications of his beliefs, or just as likely he is putting on a good show to keep you on your toes. In other words - he sounds more confident then he is.

Inner peace is a wonderful thing, but I would not give up the struggle for truth to in order to feel peace. Ignorance is bliss they say - and for some this is true. I'd rather have doubt with the hope for knowing truth, then have peace by giving up on truth.

Originally posted by Coletti
I see. Well I suppose it's possible he's worked out all the implications of his belief and made peace with them, or he's not smart enough to see some of the implications of his beliefs, or just as likely he is putting on a good show to ...[text shortened]... the hope for knowing truth, then have peace by giving up on truth.

I'd rather have doubt with the hope for knowing truth, then have peace by giving up on truth.

I’ve posted pretty much this same message before (and am starting to get bored with it myself). Nevertheless, maybe you’ll find it helpful, or at least thought-provoking, so here goes—

The Greek word pistis, generally translated as faith or belief, means trust or confidence (or even trustworthiness)—hence, faith (Latin fide). The verb form pisteo is not possessive: it doesn’t really translate as “to have faith,” but “to faith.”

The English word “believe” meant originally to “hold dear”—and hence to trust, with perhaps a connotation of hope as well. Thus it was, originally at least, a perfectly appropriate, if poetic, translation for pisteo. One of the definitions I find in my dictionary still reflects this at least somewhat: “to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or reliability of something although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so.” (Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary; my bold)

However, it can also, in contemporary English, mean such things as to be persuaded of something, to suppose or assume, or to hold an opinion. These seem much more to be matters of what one thinks. I think people can fall into a trap here, and develop a kind of “think right or be damned” notion (to put it crassly)—and be certain of it! I know it’s not always so crass as that, but I also know good folk who try to “believe really hard,” and are dreadfully afraid that any doubts will undermine their “faith.”

Faith, in what I think is its original sense, is more like the quarterback who throws the “hail Mary” pass in the final seconds of the game, with no real “proof” or certainty of the outcome. But the more confidence he can muster in throwing it (as well as his skill, experience and attention to the “evidence” of what’s going on on the field), the better his chances of connecting. (Perhaps this example also says something about where faith is applicable, and where it isn't; where reason, for example, must carry the day.)

I am saying nothing here of your particular religious “beliefs” one way or the other. But I do not think your statement that I quoted above—nor your admission of doubt—are a threat to faith.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
I've come to the conclusion that I will never sort out the tangled web of my belief system and will invariably end up in Hell. If I passed on right now, tomorrow or even the day after that... Is suspect that by current Christian rules my sould would be condemned to eternal damnation. Nothing can be done about this as I cannot escape doubt. Faith s ...[text shortened]... f my belief system.

So basically I'm screwed and should continue with my policy of hedonism.

Do you or have you accepted THE WORD OF GOD as absolute Truth? Have you ever fealt THE HOLY SPIRIT, in your heart?
I get the sence that you you really know that within your self, you have a choicce in your life. Am I right in assuming that you know that within yourself, you know. That you have a choice to enter into The Kingdom of Heaven, or to go into the world that leads to The Pit of Fire and Brimstone?

Originally posted by Coletti
This brings up a question I have been struggling with. Does doubt mean one is not saved? Is certainty guaranteed for a Christian? What is certainty? Is it an emotion?

Almost all the verses I can think of that deal with the issue make the work of Christ the object of certainty. The implication of this is that, I may be certain that Christ work saves, ...[text shortened]... faith entail certainty - and if I am not certain, I do not have faith.

What do others think?

How can someone that has doubts of the Salvation of JESUS CHRIST, enter into The Kingdom Of Heaven? Was that not how satan got man to sin? Man doubted the truth of THE WORD OF GOD? Faith in THE WORD, leads to salvation, not doubt.

Originally posted by KneverKnight
What, are you the heavy that keeps order?
He doubts a bit, so what?

Can a GOD that teaches and accepts Faith. Look or accept someone that doubts what HE has done or says?

Originally posted by blindfaith101
How can someone that has doubts of the Salvation of JESUS CHRIST, enter into The Kingdom Of Heaven? Was that not how satan got man to sin? Man doubted the truth of THE WORD OF GOD? Faith in THE WORD, leads to salvation, not doubt.

Doubt is not disbelief. It is not incompatible with faith.

And doubt is not sin. Just because it can LEAD to sin, doesn't make doubt in itself sinful.

Not that it matters. We are all sinners. Some of us just recognize it.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
Can a GOD that teaches and accepts Faith. Look or accept someone that doubts what HE has done or says?

What sort of standard are you setting up here? Are you saying that God expects perfect faith?

That, my friend, is a total lie.

If perfection was required, then what did Christ achieve on the cross? How can a God who came to save sinners not accept the 'sin' of doubt as one of the ones which we are redeemed from?

You are preaching a form of intolerance that is very, very dangerous indeed. You seem to be suggesting that, once saved, I must be a perfect Christian and that if I fall I lose my salvation. You could not be more wrong. And if you continue thinking that way, sooner or later you are going to lead yourself into despair because you will believe you have failed.