25 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadHe didn't miss Christmas off is list. But if Christ had said to go to church on his birthday that would have been a little messianic... oh hang on...
But he observed it himself. The rest would not have made much sense as they are in reference to events that had not happened at the time he was preaching.
And how did you miss Christmas in your list?🙂
--- Penguin.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadTell me the reference in the Bible where Christ observed the sabbath. I know there was a time when the disciples were caught eating corn in the cornfields on the sabbath and Christ told their accusers it was no big deal. So I was going by that example.
But he observed it himself. The rest would not have made much sense as they are in reference to events that had not happened at the time he was preaching.
And how did you miss Christmas in your list?🙂
Agreed that Christ would not have had the opportunity to make certain rules, but Paul and others would certainly have taken up the slack was it important.
Miss Christmas ?
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999I just assumed that as a Jew he did observe it and would have got into considerable trouble if he didn't. But your reference implies that he or at least his disciples were not that strict about it.
Tell me the reference in the Bible where Christ observed the Sabbath.
Miss Christmas ?
I must have a blind spot, I didn't see Christmas in there.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999Do you know anything about why people do those things?
What I think is shocking is how some professed followers of Christ place emphasis on things not taught by CHrist, and very little emphasis on what Christ did say to do. Christ did not say :
- to observe lent
- to eat fish or hot cross buns on Good Friday
- to go to church on Christmas day
- to observe the sabbath day
- to go to church on sunday etc
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerOne of the most important things Christ asked his followers to do was to 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. This includes :
Actually, no, in theory doing those things (and knowing the reasons behind them) should help them do what Christ asked his followers to do. They're not intended to be ends but means.
- feeding the poor and hungry
- visiting the sick, the fatherless and widowed.
- helping those in need.
So how do observing lent, eating fish or hot cross buns on Good Friday, going to church on Christmas day, observing the sabbath day etc etc, help them to do Christ's bidding ?
If anything, human nature being what it is, the reverse is likely to be true. People are likeely to call themselves 'good Christians' becaues of the pointless things they do, which become ends in themselves and not just 'means'.
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999The purpose of these rituals is to inspire in one's person the inclination to do the other things that
- to observe lent
- to eat fish or hot cross buns on Good Friday
- to go to church on Christmas day
- to observe the sabbath day
- to go to church on sunday etc
Christians are called to do (like you said, feed the poor, &c). Jesus was not opposed to Judaic practice,
but He was opposed to practicing it for its own sake. That is, there is no sense in washing the
outside of the cup if the inside remains dirty. However, He most certainly did not exclude the idea of
practicing those things as long as those things inspire charitable, loving behavior. So, for those who
practice Lenten abstentions, they need to arouse a greater attentiveness to the needs of the poor.
Jesus did not insist that people practice things in any particular way because I'm sure He realized that
each person needs to find their own vehicles for fostering and developing an increased mindfulness of
the needs for the poor.
Nemesio
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999Well, the Gospels record that Jesus said that people should keep the Commandments, which would
Do you have the verse handy ?
include keeping the Sabbath day holy. He did not specify how one should keep it holy, but implicitly
one can conclude He meant in the normative way of His time.
Nemesio
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by NemesioOK. Christ said keep the commandments but He subsequently commented further on the issue of the Sabbath. He was clearly not happy with the way it was being practiced in His time.
Well, the Gospels record that Jesus said that people should keep the Commandments, which would
include keeping the Sabbath day holy. He did not specify how one should keep it holy, but implicitly
one can conclude He meant in the normative way of His time.
Nemesio
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by NemesioFirst, I dont think that Christ was one to encourage rituals.
The purpose of these rituals is to inspire in one's person the inclination to do the other things that
Christians are called to do (like you said, feed the poor, &c). Jesus was not opposed to Judaic practice,
but He was opposed to practicing it for its own sake. That is, there is no sense in washing the
outside of the cup if the inside remains di ...[text shortened]... s for fostering and developing an increased mindfulness of
the needs for the poor.
Nemesio
Next do you think that say practicing Catholics will look kindly on their peers if they do not observe Lent ?
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999He was clearly unhappy with the idea that it would be followed to the exclusion
OK. Christ said keep the commandments but He subsequently commented further on the issue of the Sabbath. He was clearly not happy with the way it was being practiced in His time.
of being charitable and loving to your neighbor. We see this similar
sentiment in the story of the Good Samaritan, where so-called 'holy'
individuals eschewed helping the dying man because of the fear of
becoming ritually unpure.
Jesus was not unhappy with the Sabbath of itself -- clearly He was a
supporter of a mindful day of rest in homage to God; He was only
unhappy with the way in which people acknowledged it, and an artificial,
holier-than-thou way.
Nemesio
25 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999
First, I dont think that Christ was one to encourage rituals.
He did not discourage them, either. The only time he laments rituals
is when they were performed for their own sake and not as a means to
glorify God and inspire the individual to a more charitable attitude towards
his neighbor.
Clearly, Jesus celebrated the principal feasts of the Jewish year (several
are mentioned in the Gospel of St John). Certainly, He was not opposed
to them.
Next do you think that say practicing Catholics will look kindly on their peers if they do not observe Lent ?
A Roman Catholic who performs Lenten disciplines for the disciplines' sakes
is no different than a Pharisee. A Roman Catholic who performs the same
as a means of purifying the mind, to build empathy, to encourage charity --
in short, to become more 'Christ-like' -- is one who would meet with Jesus'
approval. A Roman Catholic who frowns upon another individual who
elects to pursue different avenues for becoming 'Christ-like' is a poor
individual, indeed, for he is insisting that the ritual be performed for the
ritual's sake, something one should explicitly avoid according to Jesus.
That's why the Roman Catholic Church has backed off from specific
disciplines (other than fasting on Good Friday and Ash Wednesday) and
encouraged people to devise their own, trusting the pure-of-heart to
establish appropriate disciplines for themselves.
Nemesio