Sheep's Tale

Originally posted by RJHinds
I am referring to everyone on this forum, including yourself. Do you
have an explanation? If so, what is it?

Oh I see, you've been elected to speak for everyone now then? I must have missed that bit.

Aaaanyway, for your benefit, here goes.

The story is allegorical. If you follow the allegory, it poses the question 'how do you know that your god is actually good?' Clearly you believe that this supposedly all-powerful being is good, but accepting that it is all-powerful, how do you know that it isn't actually 'mean' and is using you or your soul or whatever for it's own inscrutable purpose? Obviously an all-powerful being would have no difficulty whatsoever in convincing mere mortals such as ourselves that he is lovely, cuddly and good...

Clearer now?

I must say I do find the rather hostile responses from one or two posters to this simple story to be quite interesting.

Originally posted by sumydid
Of course this sheep's tale is utterly irrelevant to the nonbeliever; seeing as how there IS no magician, good or bad. Right? So this pitiful allegorical warning to Christians that our God may actually champion evil is completely hollow coming from a nonbeliever.

Now then, if you actually do believe the biblical God exists, and still want to clai ...[text shortened]... you must come to terms with the distinct possibility that you are the one who has been fooled.

Nonsense, you're effectively saying if you don't believe in X then you have no basis for challenging the widely held belief in X has property Y - and if you do believe in X and then raise concerns X might not have property Y then you should question your intellectual basis for deviating from common opinion. In both cases you're just bullying the questioner to keep his/her trap shut.

A non theist is quite entitled to investigate and challenge the commonly accepted view that someone's God has a particular character - in this case being All-Loving. Indeed why cannot a god be an utter monster? What is the logical or even empirical impediment to this line of enquiry!?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Oh I see, you've been elected to speak for everyone now then? I must have missed that bit.

Aaaanyway, for your benefit, here goes.

The story is allegorical. If you follow the allegory, it poses the question 'how do you know that your god is actually good?' Clearly you believe that this supposedly all-powerful being is good, but a ...[text shortened]... r hostile responses from one or two posters to this simple story to be quite interesting.

If you want a fun example from fiction how about the Ori from StarGate SG-1?

They were uuber powerful beings who gained more power by getting lots and lots of people to believe in them...

They didn't have any trouble manifesting their power so faith was not required, but the fictional religion was
otherwise very similar to Christianity.

All the people believing and worshipping the Ori thought they would be rewarded by being ascended Reveal Hidden Content when they
died. However the Ori did not want to share their power so on death people just died, And the Ori just kept
gaining strength from all the believers.

Now it is of course fictional... But from the point of view of a believer how do you tell that 'your god' isn't doing
something similar?
Do have anything other than faith in their 'goodness'.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Oh I see, you've been elected to speak for everyone now then? I must have missed that bit.

Aaaanyway, for your benefit, here goes.

The story is allegorical. If you follow the allegory, it poses the question 'how do you know that your god is actually good?' Clearly you believe that this supposedly all-powerful being is good, but a ...[text shortened]... r hostile responses from one or two posters to this simple story to be quite interesting.

It is clear as mud now, thanks.

Originally posted by RJHinds
It is clear as mud now, thanks.

Really? Well, sorry mate, I honestly don't think I can word it any more simply. Never mind eh? Try not to lose sleep over it.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Really? Well, sorry mate, I honestly don't think I can word it any more simply. Never mind eh? Try not to lose sleep over it.

I am awake now this morning. No I didn't lose any sleep over it. I
guess I must have went to sleep before your comment.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Oh I see, you've been elected to speak for everyone now then? I must have missed that bit.

Aaaanyway, for your benefit, here goes.

The story is allegorical. If you follow the allegory, it poses the question 'how do you know that your god is actually good?' Clearly you believe that this supposedly all-powerful being is good, but a r hostile responses from one or two posters to this simple story to be quite interesting.

Now that I have rested my brain with a night of sleep, I think I may
understand where you are coming from. You think the writer of the
allegory was representing Jesus as a magician, who also used the art
of hypnosis to trick his followers. So for example, when Jesus fed the
five thousand with five loaves of bread and two fishes and all were
filled and he had twelve baskets full of broken pieces of bread and
fish left over, that was just a magic trick and perhaps hypnosis along
with it. This I guess must hold true for the turning of water into wine,
the walking on water, the healing of the blind from birth, the lame,
those with leprosy and other illnesses, and His crucifixion, death, and
resurrection. So Jesus was just an amazing magician and hypnotist.
Is that the meaning of the allegory as you see it? You may be right,
but in that case the writer of the allegory had to be wrong in his thinking
because it does not make good sense.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Now that I have rested my brain with a night of sleep, I think I may
understand where you are coming from. You think the writer of the
allegory was representing Jesus as a magician, who also used the art
of hypnosis to trick his followers. So for example, when Jesus fed the
five thousand with five loaves of bread and two fishes and all were
filled and ...[text shortened]... the writer of the allegory had to be wrong in his thinking
because it does not make good sense.

Nope. It's not about Jesus.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Nope. It's not about Jesus.

I still think Satan, the Devil, also known as Lucifer, fits the allegory best.
He is a magician and deceiver and has malice on his mind.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I still think Satan, the Devil, also known as Lucifer, fits the allegory best.
He is a magician and deceiver and has malice on his mind.

It's not about Satan. It's not about Jesus. It's about whatever god you believe in. I really can't see why you're having such trouble with it. It's a simple 'what if?'. How do you know that the god you worship is good?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
It's not about Satan. It's not about Jesus. It's about whatever god you believe in. I really can't see why you're having such trouble with it. It's a simple 'what if?'. How do you know that the god you worship is good?

So In my case, the very rich magician, who is also a hypnotist and is
very mean is the God of the Holy Bible and the Father of Jesus. But
if he has hypnotised me into thinking I am immortal why do I, at the
age of 67, believe I will probably die in another 10 or 20 years?

Originally posted by RJHinds
So In my case, the very rich magician, who is also a hypnotist and is
very mean is the God of the Holy Bible and the Father of Jesus. But
if he has hypnotised me into thinking I am immortal why do I, at the
age of 67, believe I will probably die in another 10 or 20 years?

So you don't believe you have an immortal soul?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
So you don't believe you have an immortal soul?

You must have me and the Holy Bible confused with Dasa and the Veda.
The following is a quote from Dasa:

"The Veda informs us that the soul (the true person) is eternal - the Bible does not. (error 4)...

The Veda informs us that the soul is indestructible and eternal - the Bible does not. (error 6.)

The Veda informs us that the soul after death - takes birth in the womb of another mother according to that person’s particular karma - the Bible rejects this. (error7)"

Originally posted by RJHinds
You must have me and the Holy Bible confused with Dasa and the Veda.
The following is a quote from Dasa:

"The Veda informs us that the soul (the true person) is eternal - the Bible does not. (error 4)...

The Veda informs us that the soul is indestructible and eternal - the Bible does not. (error 6.)

The Veda informs us that the soul after death - t ...[text shortened]... another mother according to that person’s particular karma - the Bible rejects this. (error7)"

No, I'm quite able to distinguish between you and Dasa/Vishvahetu. I re-state my question; do you, or do you not believe you have an immortal soul?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
No, I'm quite able to distinguish between you and Dasa/Vishvahetu. I re-state my question; do you, or do you not believe you have an immortal soul?

Dasa is correct the Holy Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal,
eternal, and is indestructable like he says the Veda does. I believe
the Holy Bible, which means I believe my soul is not immortal. It can
be destroyed in hell.