21 Apr 15
Originally posted by RJHindsI have watched this forum for quite sometime now and have seen the Shroud question come up many times. Usually debate ensues with a YouTube video, and then the counter... usually there is some name calling. Christianity and faith in God is not about proof of the authenticity of some artifact or rag, I think it really means very little.
It is not obvious to the scientists that actually examined the shroud. They say it appears to be the genuine burial linen cloth of Jesus.
In John we find the true meaning of faith in God...
John 20:26-29English Standard Version (ESV)
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
The shroud, piece of the cross, burial place, holy grail, etc. are a form of idol worship... We should move on, it proves nothing to those without faith and there is no change. iMO
Originally posted by yoctobyteI think it means quite a lot, actually. I think it means that some people's faith is very contrived and credulous ~ and perhaps even rather shallow ~ if it relies so heavily on cultivating one's own 'otherness' by subscribing to patently bogus claims about reality in an effort to demonstrate some sort of demented hardliner sincerity. It's part of a kind of 'You can't hold a candle to my rock hard faith ~ I nail my underpants to more ludicrous masts-of-belief than you've had hot dinners' schtick.
Christianity and faith in God is not about proof of the authenticity of some artifact or rag, I think it really means very little.
21 Apr 15
Originally posted by FMFDo you believe there is any truth to the shroud being the burial clothe of Jesus?
I think it means quite a lot, actually. I think it means that some people's faith is very contrived and credulous ~ and perhaps even rather shallow ~ if it relies so heavily on cultivating one's own 'otherness' by subscribing to patently bogus claims about reality in an effort to demonstrate some sort of demented hardliner sincerity. It's part of a kind of 'You ...[text shortened]... h ~ I nail my underpants to more ludicrous masts-of-belief than you've had hot dinners' schtick.
Originally posted by yoctobyteWell your opinion differs from mine and a Jew that was part of the scientific investigative team. He says God's command concerned manmade images so the shroud image does not violate God's command. See the interview video with Barrie M. Schwortz that I posted on the previous page.
I have watched this forum for quite sometime now and have seen the Shroud question come up many times. Usually debate ensues with a YouTube video, and then the counter... usually there is some name calling. Christianity and faith in God is not about proof of the authenticity of some artifact or rag, I think it really means very little.
In John we find ...[text shortened]... ship... We should move on, it proves nothing to those without faith and there is no change. iMO
God even commanded His holy angels to worship His only begotten Son as recorded in holy scripture. Jesus is stated by scripture to be the expressed image of God. So if God can make Jesus an image of Himself, what is wrong with God making an image of His Son on a cloth for man to have. I haven't heard anyone claim that we must worship the image on the cloth, even if it is that of Jesus.
21 Apr 15
Originally posted by RJHindsDo you not believe that the shroud is worshipped?
Well your opinion differs from mine and a Jew that was part of the scientific investigative team. He says God's command concerned manmade images so the shroud image does not violate God's command. See the interview video with Barrie M. Schwortz that I posted on the previous page.
God even commanded His holy angels to worship His only begotten Son as rec ...[text shortened]... n't heard anyone claim that we must worship the image on the cloth, even if it is that of Jesus.
21 Apr 15
Originally posted by FMFOff topic for sure... I understand there have been a few large earthquakes in Indonesia of late, anything near where you live?
No. But I also absolutely agree with you when you say 'what does it matter ~ it shouldn't matter ~ what does one hope to achieve etc.'
21 Apr 15
Originally posted by yoctobyteThe frequency and magnitude of earthquakes here has been business as usual of late i.e. loads of them. The last big one in my city was May 2006 (biggest one I've ever experienced) which killed about 6,000 people and made upwards of 300,000 homeless. It gave me and my family and our house a right old shaking for about 60 seconds at five to six on that Saturday morning.
Off topic for sure... I understand there have been a few large earthquakes in Indonesia of late, anything near where you live?
More in our faces here, though, is Mount Merapi which is one of the most active volcanoes in the world and it went off good and proper in 2006 and in 2010. It dumped a few centimetres of ash on us all after clearing its lungs a few times in April of last year.
Originally posted by yoctobyteI don't know if some people might worship the image of Jesus or not.
Do you not believe that the shroud is worshipped?
I only see it as an artifact not made by human hands that is evidence for the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus as is recorded in the gospels.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
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22 Apr 15
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHinds
God even commanded His holy angels to worship His only begotten Son as recorded in holy scripture. Jesus is stated by scripture to be the expressed image of God. So if God can make Jesus an image of Himself, what is wrong with God making an image of His Son on a cloth for man to have. I haven't heard anyone claim that we must worship the image on the cloth, even if it is that of Jesus.
RJ, the poster had a point. While there may be some physical artifacts we have to be careful that they do not become objects of worship.
The body of Moses was hidden and never recovered for the Israelites. This is probably because God knew that they would turn that corpse into an idol.
Please read how Hezekiah grounded into ashes the bronze serpent that God had told Moses to make.
Second Kings 18:4
English Standard Version
He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan).
New American Standard Bible
He removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.
I am not suggesting every archeological artifact of genuiness should be hunted down and destroyed. I am saying the biblical warning against the tendency of people to depart from the living God to idolatry is evident.
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22 Apr 15
Originally posted by RJHindsI don't know if I watched this particular video. But I got yesterday a good dose of Ron Wyatt videos on archeology.
Shroud of Turin Update #5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLEfmAUupwg
I think you should realize that as soon as some atheist scientist can get his hands on the DNA from some cloth, he will come up with equally persuasive reasons why it cannot be the DNA of someone born of a virgin.
You know that RJ.
Now notice that the Apostle Peter talked about his eyewitness vision of Christ's transfiguration on the mountain. However, he seems to have given a higher priority to the pure word of prophetic scriptures. And that is where we should place our higher attention to convince the world, that and the testimony of our living.
See Second Peter 1:16-21.
22 Apr 15
Originally posted by sonshipWell, I have no intention of making the image on the linen of the Shroud as something to worship. But I believe this must be the burial shroud of Christ, for why else would the early Christians have kept it. The same logic goes for the bloody face cloth that is now in Spain.
[quote] God even commanded His holy angels to worship His only begotten Son as recorded in holy scripture. Jesus is stated by scripture to be the expressed image of God. So if God can make Jesus an image of Himself, what is wrong with God making an image of His Son on a cloth for man to have. I haven't heard anyone claim that we must worship the image on the ...[text shortened]... cal warning against the tendency of people to depart from the living God to idolatry is evident.