Side-effects of Faith

Originally posted by KellyJay
The Big Bang is not an event that talks about something from nothing!
Kelly

correct. That is just what I said.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So like I've been saying there is no idea in the head of man period that can
talk about how everthing got here, it is a complete blank! There isn't a cause
or anything else, instead we see this dance around the time line which is also
something by the way. What is left is a huge I don't know, but what I do know
is that God had nothing to do with it, as if there was something that suggested
that in this great I don't know.
Kelly

Not knowing the answer to a question means not knowing the answer to a question.

I don't know, is a perfectly valid answer when you do not in fact know the answer.

It is not an excuse just to make one up.

That is the argument from ignorance fallacy or the 'god of the gaps' argument.

We don't even know IF the universe had a beginning.

We do know that the visible part of the universe we see around us formed into the
state it is now in from an event 13.7 billion yrs ago we call the big bang but we don't
know what happened before this event (or even if there WAS a before this event) and
we don't know what if anything caused the big bang to occur.
We don't know if this is the only universe or if it is only one among many.
However we are trying to find answers to these questions, that is what cosmology is about.
Until however we do have those answers we have to say that we don't know.

We don't get to say god did it.

Firstly it's unjustified because there is no evidence that a god or gods exist and no evidence
to suppose that even if they do exist they created the universe (and then all you have done
is move the problem of where the universe came from to where the gods came from).

Secondly, saying 'god/s did it' doesn't explain anything and has zero predictive power.

Thirdly we don't even know that there was a beginning in need of explanation in the first place.
If the universe has existed forever in one form or another (which is entirely plausible and what
is suggested by the latest hypotheses in cosmology) then the very question of what caused it and
where did it come from becomes meaningless and mute.

It's not that it's impossible that the universe was created by a god or gods it's just that there is
no evidence for it, plenty of evidence against it, and no benefit to supposing it. (and considerable
downsides to supposing it)

We believe things only if there is evidence that rationally justifies that belief.
In the absence of evidence you don't believe anything.
And you always keep looking for more evidence.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Virtual particles pop into and out of existence all the time with no cause.
This has been observed and proven, and is not conjecture.

Also define nothing, and show me an example of nothing so we can test if
anything can come form it.

I didn't say that the cosmological argument was one of your reasons for belief
in god let alone all of them. I ...[text shortened]... on't have any evidence because if you did I (and everyone else)
would already know about it.

You are full of yourself to put it mildly.
You think your views if expressed can destroy reasons for God?
At best all you can do is state your disagreements with how others are viewing
life and other odds and ends. From there people will accept or reject your
views. You may of course view everyone else as something less than if they
fail to agree with you, which is what I think you do now anyway.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If they are popping in and out that isn't saying they are forming and leaving
without reason, it is just saying we are losing track of them.
Kelly

No they form as particle anti-particle pairs and they borrow energy from the vacuum,
pop into existence, exist briefly, then collide and annihilate, and release the borrowed
energy back to the vacuum. plus other more complicated stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Originally posted by googlefudge
Not knowing the answer to a question means not knowing the answer to a question.

I don't know, is a perfectly valid answer when you do not in fact know the answer.

It is not an excuse just to make one up.

That is the argument from ignorance fallacy or the 'god of the gaps' argument.

We don't even know IF the universe had a beginning.

We do ...[text shortened]... ce you don't believe anything.
And you always keep looking for more evidence.

I agree you don't know, you don't have a clue, you spout off as if you do know
what is real yet....you don't know, you don't have a clue.

I said it has not entered the mind of man how everything got here, you have
backup my claim. Thank you
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are full of yourself to put it mildly.
You think your views if expressed can destroy reasons for God?
At best all you can do is state your disagreements with how others are viewing
life and other odds and ends. From there people will accept or reject your
views. You may of course view everyone else as something less than if they
fail to agree with you, which is what I think you do now anyway.
Kelly

No, I don't think me 'views' destroy reasons for belief in god.

There ARE no valid reasons for believing in god or gods.
All I do is point that out.

And you know nothing about me or how I view people, I do not view people as less for not agreeing with me.
Although it rather sounds like you do.

Originally posted by googlefudge
No they form as particle anti-particle pairs and they borrow energy from the vacuum,
pop into existence, exist briefly, then collide and annihilate, and release the borrowed
energy back to the vacuum. plus other more complicated stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

So there is a reason, a process in place....so again something with a cause.
Get with the question will you!
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree you don't know, you don't have a clue, you spout off as if you do know
what is real yet....you don't know, you don't have a clue.

I said it has not entered the mind of man how everything got here, you have
backup my claim. Thank you
Kelly

I did not say I didn't have a clue, or that nobody had a clue.
I said we don't KNOW yet.

However even if we didn't 'have a clue', that still does not make 'god did it' a reasonable
explanation (or any explanation) or position to take.

So way to go for missing the entire point of the argument.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So there is a reason, a process in place....so again something with a cause.
Get with the question will you!
Kelly

There is no 'cause' they pop into and out of existence at random.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm still waiting for you to tell me how everything got here, do that I'll talk
about God.


In the mean time nothing.
Nothing is difficult to talk about, because as soon as you do you put shape and
form to it. In computer programing you can have a null value, it isn't defined,
but it is still there waiting to be formed. Nothing goes beyond that, not ...[text shortened]... ing changes so that there is something there, what caused
that is more than nothing.
Kelly

Right well from your description of nothing I can say that there is no such thing as your nothing anywhere in the universe.

Which means we can't do any tests on your 'nothing' to determine if it is possible for something to come from it.

We also have no evidence that it has ever or can ever exist.

Originally posted by googlefudge
No, I don't think me 'views' destroy reasons for belief in god.

There ARE no valid reasons for believing in god or gods.
All I do is point that out.

And you know nothing about me or how I view people, I do not view people as less for not agreeing with me.
Although it rather sounds like you do.

I again tell you, you accepting my reasons for God isn't something I worry
about. Your beliefs about what is and isn't important are good for you, but
mean nothing to me. You value what think needs to be valued, you give
somethings more weight than others, is it always the proper amount to get
at the truth....who knows? Your ideas and mine may not reflect reality as
is, reality doesn't depend on human thoughts only our opinions about reality
worry about such things.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So like I've been saying there is no idea in the head of man period that can
talk about how everthing got here, it is a complete blank! There isn't a cause
or anything else, instead we see this dance around the time line which is also
something by the way. What is left is a huge I don't know, but what I do know
is that God had nothing to do with it, as if there was something that suggested
that in this great I don't know.
Kelly

“...
So like I've been saying there is no idea in the head of man period that can
talk about how everthing got here, ...”

if what you mean by “everything” in the above is all the stars, planets and structures in the universe at the present moment in time then we clearly and OBVIOUSLY DO know how it all “got here”; it got here as a result of the big bang.
But if what you mean by “everything” includes the singularity that gave rise to the big bang then, if time began at the big bang, then the singularity never “got” there but instead was simply there to start with at the first point in time so no need for it to come from somewhere else. And, if time didn't begin then, all that would mean is that the singularity either came from some other universe ( assuming there could be another universe ) or came from a previous stage of this universe -either way, no need to invoke the gods or God.

“...instead we see this dance around the time line which is also
something by the way. ...”

yes, you can say time is “something”. Your point?

Originally posted by googlefudge
Right well from your description of nothing I can say that there is no such thing as your nothing anywhere in the universe.

Which means we can't do any tests on your 'nothing' to determine if it is possible for something to come from it.

We also have no evidence that it has ever or can ever exist.

I just want you to tell me where everything came from! Why is it so hard?
If you cannot tell me how it all got here, than how do you know your views
about it are a reflection of reality? Seriously, if you don't know how the process
started how do you know your views about it are actually taking into account
all you need to, since you really do have holes in your knowledge about over
all process. Since you don't know how it started you have NO IDEA on how
large your lack of knowledge really is
Kelly

Originally posted by humy
“...
So like I've been saying there is no idea in the head of man period that can
talk about how everthing got here, ...”

if what you mean by “everything” in the above is all the stars, planets and structures in the universe at the present moment in time then we clearly and OBVIOUSLY DO know how it all “got here”; it got here as a result of the big bang. ...[text shortened]... hich is also
something by the way. ...”

yes, you can say time is “something”. Your point?

When I say everything I mean everything a part of this natural universe.
According to some everything is just part of some process that is changing
over time. It was in one state than another, this fromed from that and so on.
So where did it all come from? The answer I don't know is all we really got!
If it didn't start itself, something/someone else did.
If no-thing can start itself out of nothing, than something/someone did from
outside of this "everything".
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I just want you to tell me where everything came from! Why is it so hard?
If you cannot tell me how it all got here, than how do you know your views
about it are a reflection of reality? Seriously, if you don't know how the process
started how do you know your views about it are actually taking into account
all you need to, since you really do have hole ...[text shortened]... n't know how it started you have NO IDEA on how
large your lack of knowledge really is
Kelly

Can you explain the exact process ( breaking it up in all its stages so we can analyse it rationally and understand how such magic is causally and logically possible as well as how each stage works ) of how a god can miraculously and magically create something from nothing?
If you claim to have toe answers, why is that such a hard question for you to answer?