Since atheism is a belief

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't quite understand the aversion many atheists have to calling this a belief.

Belief in the loch ness monster is very different than not believing the claim that the loch ness monster exists, and therefore believing that the loch ness monster doesn't exist. It's the exact same thing with theism and atheism.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't quite understand the aversion many atheists have to calling this a belief.

I think you do. I think you want to call it a belief because then you can make conclusions about atheists based on calling it a belief (such as calling atheism a religion for example).
My aversion to you calling it a belief is based entirely on your desire to use that label to make unwarranted claims. Kelly for example would like to claim that my belief in the lack of gods colours my world view as if I am looking through coloured glasses. Such a claim only makes sense if his definition of 'belief' is different from my actual stand on the position. Therefore I do not wish for him to call my stand a belief by his definition.

If you wish to call atheism a belief, go right ahead, just don't make any unwarranted conclusions from it.

Originally posted by C Hess
Belief in the loch ness monster is very different than not believing the claim that the loch ness monster exists, and therefore believing that the loch ness monster doesn't exist. It's the exact same thing with theism and atheism.

Thread is far too long to read, but I thought I'd chime in anyway to argue with your 'therefore' here. Not believing the claim that the Loch Ness Monster exists is not the same as believing that the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist.

Originally posted by C Hess
Belief in the loch ness monster is very different than not believing the claim that the loch ness monster exists, and therefore believing that the loch ness monster doesn't exist. It's the exact same thing with theism and atheism.

Except unlike God beliefs about Him alter behavior, walking out one's faith will be taking the
steps one believes are the correct ones and avoiding those that are not. No matter what
you pick about God, believing in Him will be different than not. Even if you didn't even hear
about God your life would be different than if you've known Him your whole life.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Except unlike God beliefs about Him alter behavior, walking out one's faith will be taking the
steps one believes are the correct ones and avoiding those that are not. No matter what
you pick about God, believing in Him will be different than not. Even if you didn't even hear
about God your life would be different than if you've known Him your whole life.

Quite true, alas. Belief in god has all sorts of negative effects on a person's behaviour.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Thread is far too long to read, but I thought I'd chime in anyway to argue with your 'therefore' here. Not believing the claim that the Loch Ness Monster exists is not the same as believing that the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist.

I would think it's the only logical conclusion. If you don't believe any claims to X existence, then you can't believe X exists.

Well, I suppose you could have some kind of blind belief, but I don't think... okay, maybe you're right. 😕

For me it follows though, that if there are no convincing claims for X, I don't tend to believe in X.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Quite true, alas. Belief in god has all sorts of negative effects on a person's behaviour.

Can have, true enough just as not having one can cause negative ones as well.

Originally posted by C Hess
I would think it's the only logical conclusion. If you don't believe any claims to X existence, then you can't believe X exists.

Well, I suppose you could have some kind of blind belief, but I don't think... okay, maybe you're right. 😕

For me it follows though, that if there are no convincing claims for X, I don't tend to believe in X.

Walking out one's faith doesn't require a positive thing to believe in to cause someone
to behave well or badly. You can believe there is no policeman over the hill and drive
20 mph over the speed limit because that is what you like to do, while if you believe one
could be there you may do the speed limit. The fact there could be one or not does not
matter as much as what you think, what you believe. You can risk bad behavior or follow
the laws, you'll follow your beliefs which will cause you to do or not do them.

Originally posted by C Hess
I would think it's the only logical conclusion. If you don't believe any claims to X existence, then you can't believe X exists.

Well, I suppose you could have some kind of blind belief, but I don't think... okay, maybe you're right. 😕

For me it follows though, that if there are no convincing claims for X, I don't tend to believe in X.

That doesn't seem logical to me. Perhaps that's because of my archaeological background. It's axiomatic in archaeology that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Walking out one's faith doesn't require a positive thing to believe in to cause someone
to behave well or badly. You can believe there is no policeman over the hill and drive
20 mph over the speed limit because that is what you like to do, while if you believe one
could be there you may do the speed limit. The fact there could be one or not does not
mat ...[text shortened]... avior or follow
the laws, you'll follow your beliefs which will cause you to do or not do them.

If I recall correctly, you are a Once Saved Always Saved Christian and you believe that even your future "sins" have already been forgiven ~ at least that's what you told me. Have I got it right?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Except unlike God beliefs about Him alter behavior, walking out one's faith will be taking the
steps one believes are the correct ones and avoiding those that are not. No matter what
you pick about God, believing in Him will be different than not. Even if you didn't even hear
about God your life would be different than if you've known Him your whole life.

Can you provide an example of one thing your belief provides you, and I (as an atheist) lack, which also affects how I view this physical reality I'm in?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Except unlike God beliefs about Him alter behavior, walking out one's faith will be taking the
steps one believes are the correct ones and avoiding those that are not. No matter what
you pick about God, believing in Him will be different than not. Even if you didn't even hear
about God your life would be different than if you've known Him your whole life.

If you lived on the shores of Loch Ness, your beliefs about the Loch Ness monster would alter your behaviour such as whether or not you went swimming in it.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Can have, true enough just as not having one can cause negative ones as well.

Indeed. By extension we can probably just assume that sometimes, some people will behave badly regardless of their belief in god or lack thereof. There's certainly no evidence to suggest that christians (or those of any other religious persuasion) conduct themselves to any higher standard than atheists.

Originally posted by C Hess
I would think it's the only logical conclusion. If you don't believe any claims to X existence, then you can't believe X exists.

That is not the claim that was challenged. The claim was that not believing something exists is equivalent to believing it doesn't exist.
Do you believe that Neptune has an as yet undiscovered moon?
I do not believe that it has an as yet undiscovered moon. That does not mean that I believe that it doesn't have an as yet undiscovered moon.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
It's axiomatic in archaeology that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Yes, that's true in general, but we don't walk around thinking that absence of evidence is evidence of something either. It simply means we don't have the evidence, and you will be logically justified in not believing X.