Sincere and sufficient effort

@bigdoggproblem said
I don't have time to put a "sincere and sufficient effort" into giving every religious system in the world a fair shake.

Sorry, but I just don't.

I am not suggesting that anyone should.

@fmf said
I am not suggesting that anyone should.

I didn't claim you did. I was just putting that out there. That is the problem with the whole "you didn't give faith X a fair chance!" argument. I simply don't have time for all the faiths.

@philokalia said
By not being a Christian anymore, it is a vice.

What 'immoral and wicked behaviour' are you accusing me of aside from not being a member of your religion?

And what does it have to do with the thread topic or the argument used by many here that 25+ years of being a Christian and then losing that faith was "dismissing it out of hand" or the claim that IF I HAD 'made a sufficiently sincere effort and given it more time' then I would somehow still be one?

@fmf said
What 'immoral and wicked behaviour' are you accusing me of aside from not being a member of your religion?

And what does it have to do with the thread topic or the argument used by many here that 25+ years of being a Christian and then losing that faith was "dismissing it out of hand" or the claim that I had 'made a sincere effort and given it more time' then I would somehow still be one?

It was a smug dismissal by a person who has not even walked one inch in the shoes of a former theist.

@fmf said
What 'immoral and wicked behaviour' are you accusing me of aside from not being a member of your religion?

And what does it have to do with the thread topic or the argument used by many here that 25+ years of being a Christian and then losing that faith was "dismissing it out of hand" or the claim that IF I HAD 'made a sufficiently sincere effort and given it more time' then I would somehow still be one?

By turning your back on the true God that you once worshiped (perhaps once worshiped because there is a chance that you were a member of a significantly heterodox religious group), it is the act of withholding the rightful worship to God, and it is the denial of your own sins and failure to repent for a good part of them.

It also results in inevitably setting up your own idols that exist alongside God, and letting a lot of the fruit of the more subtle virtues whither, because, no doubt, you would not believe in a lot of these virtues.

But... by itself, the denial of God His proper worship and thereby not repenting of your sins to God, you have committed a sin.

Of course, I do not know who you are as a person at all, and cannot speculate as to what your venial and mortal sins beyond this may be. ^^

@bigdoggproblem said
It was a smug dismissal by a person who has not even walked one inch in the shoes of a former theist.

Oh, y ou know my religious history?

@philokalia said
Oh, y ou know my religious history?

No...but I can see when you are not putting in "sincere and sufficient effort" in engaging another poster.

@philokalia said
By turning your back on the true God that you once worshiped (perhaps once worshiped because there is a chance that you were a member of a significantly heterodox religious group), it is the act of withholding the rightful worship to God, and it is the denial of your own sins and failure to repent for a good part of them.

What does this have to do with whether my effort [to maintain my Christian faith and/or my examination and contemplation of Christian beliefs] was sincere or sufficient? And how does it justify characterizing loss of faith after almost three decades of being a Christian as being "dismissing it out of hand"?

@philokalia said
It also results in inevitably setting up your own idols that exist alongside God, and letting a lot of the fruit of the more subtle virtues whither, because, no doubt, you would not believe in a lot of these virtues.

How does this address the question I have raised on this thread. I know what your religious beliefs are. I know that you are engaging in a kind of religious browbeating about "rightful" this and "virtue" that and "wickedness" this and "hubris and vice" that. But I am a non-believer; unless you are posting this stuff for the Christian gallery, you are wasting words. So that aside, what about the topic?

@philokalia said
But... by itself, the denial of God His proper worship and thereby not repenting of your sins to God, you have committed a sin. Of course, I do not know who you are as a person at all, and cannot speculate as to what your venial and mortal sins beyond this may be.

What about the issue of accusing an ex-believer of 'dismissing [the religion in question] out of hand' and what amount of 'sincere and sufficient effort' makes this accusation foolish?

@bigdoggproblem said
No...but I can see when you are not putting in "sincere and sufficient effort" in engaging another poster.

Alright, some of htis is embarrassing for me.

But I was not always a Chrisitan. I was raised in a Christian home and, honestly, my father and mother were both good teachers of Christianity and did try to prevent me from dabbling in Eastern religion, but I ended up doing that, and I even ended doing many things I shouldn't have, up to & including partaking in the worship of idols. At a few different points I was also deist, thinking God was unknowable, and simply believing that perhaps all religions had elements of the truth and are the religions that those people need to improve themselves.

I spent some years really bouncing around into a lot of different thoughts and religions, never fully joining, heed you, but often looking for something "better" than what I had, or looking to meld into another.

I do not know the hardened atheist perspective as I have never been one of those, but I have been close to it at points.

@fmf said
What about the issue of accusing an ex-believer of 'dismissing [the religion in question] out of hand' and what amount of 'sincere and sufficient effort' makes this accusation foolish?

I don't know about this issue.

Did somebody hurt your feelings when they said that you dismissed the religion out of hand?

Did somebody's single sentence on the topic make you feel unappreciated?

Perhaps they were wrong, but it sounds like you are nitpicking here.

@fmf said
How does this address the question I have raised on this thread. I know what your religious beliefs are. I know that you are engaging in a kind of religious browbeating about "rightful" this and "virtue" that and "wickedness" this and "hubris and vice" that. But I am a non-believer; unless you are posting this stuff for the Christian gallery, you are wasting words. So that aside, what about the topic?

Oh, I am wasting words? I thought I was explaining to you more about how it is a sin that goes beyond the simple description of it being mere "non-belief."

I do not think I am wasting words in that regard.

Surely, you can see the interconnectivity of these different points.

@philokalia said
Alright, some of htis is embarrassing for me.

But I was not always a Chrisitan. I was raised in a Christian home and, honestly, my father and mother were both good teachers of Christianity and did try to prevent me from dabbling in Eastern religion, but I ended up doing that, and I even ended doing many things I shouldn't have, up to & including partaking in the worshi ...[text shortened]... rdened atheist perspective as I have never been one of those, but I have been close to it at points.

Where you have failed, is this.

You have not recognized that different people have different Spiritual paths.

Just because you felt wrong about dabblings outside of Christianity does not mean that others are wrong in rejecting Christianity.

It may only mean that Christianity was not right, for those people.

@fmf said
What does this have to do with whether my effort [to maintain my Christian faith and/or my examination and contemplation of Christian beliefs] was sincere or sufficient? And how does it justify characterizing loss of faith after almost three decades of being a Christian as being "dismissing it out of hand"?

It is describing the fault of turning your back on Christianity.
Oh, wait, I shouldn't use words like this because FMF is very, very sensitive and could have his feelings hurt if I told him he turned his back on it or 'gave up' on it, or any other number of perfectly normal turns of phrase, just like he got so upset by someone saying 'dismissing it otut of hand.

Let me turn on the Uber-Neutral language filter for a guy who refuses to call people who believe in hell anything but 'torture-god believers' so I do not offend him....

Your loss of faith could have been done after quite sincere and sufficient efforts to maintain Christianity, and you may sincerely and sufficiently understand a lot of Christian theology. It might be the case that you are simply mistaken and thinking wrongly about these things, and that God is not drawing you near to him (or you are unconsciously rejecting him).

I cannot actually speculate to the speicifcs of your case, and something tells me that you will not reveal that many details about your search and your feelings, etc.

Surely, it could never, ever, not even for a minute, ever EVER be appropriate that someone would suggest that FMF ever did anything that was not exhaustive, thorough, and highly scrupulous in his choice making.

May the people who assassinated your character by saying you dismissed it out of hand STAND CORRECTED.