Some findings trawled when having a look on the other side

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I can't help but feel you don't really know what you're talking about. 'Plain vanilla atheist', what does that even mean exactly? Do you mean positive atheism?

I don't think you could find one atheist on this forum who would claim to know that God doesn't exist. Anyone who claims to know that God doesn't exist in my book is just as fool ...[text shortened]... ts right (correct me if i am mistaken)? Would you accept that you are 'closed minded'?

I have stated again and again on this forum that I believe that God exists but I do not KNOW if God exists. An agnostic atheist will have the position that I have already stated in my post. By ' plain vanilla ' atheist I meant an atheist who was just that, no qualifying adjectives, one who KNEW that there was no God. I very much know what I am talking about. But you surely do not know anything about posting manners.

Originally posted by googlefudge
The "plain vanilla atheist" as you put it is the agnostic atheist.
Even such renowned 'strong atheists' as Richard Dawkins are agnostic atheists.

I know of no atheist who is or would claim to be a gnostic atheist.

Dawkins calls himself a militant atheist. As regards my understanding of plain vanilla atheist, please see my post above. Dawkins may qualify for being an agnostic atheist because he has titled a chapter in ' the god delusion ' as ' why most probably there is no god '. Yet, surprisingly he is against agnostics in this area because he states in his book that one must take a firm position in this regard.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I have stated again and again on this forum that I believe that God exists but I do not KNOW if God exists. An agnostic atheist will have the position that I have already stated in my post. By ' plain vanilla ' atheist I meant an atheist who was just that, no qualifying adjectives, one who KNEW that there was no God. I very much know what I am talking about. But you surely do not know anything about posting manners.

But you surely do not know anything about posting manners.

What a curious fellow you are. I state that i feel you don't really know what you're talking about and suddenly my 'posting manners' are called into question?! What is that all about? It appears, and i know it's been brought to your attention before, you can't handle criticism too well.

Let's go back to your original statement, note the bold -

I am presuming that you have not closed your mind like many atheists usually do.

Closed minded atheists according to you are these so called 'plain vanilla atheists', (i can't help but feel that's intended as an insult), atheists who claim to know God doesn't exist. But i put it to you that these atheists are in the minority, not the majority, so your claim of many is unfounded.

Incidentally, would you say that theists who claim to know God exists are also closed minded?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]But you surely do not know anything about posting manners.

What a curious fellow you are. I state that i feel you don't really know what you're talking about and suddenly my 'posting manners' are called into question?! What is that all about? It appears, and i know it's been brought to your attention before, you can't handle criticism too well ...[text shortened]... uld you say that theists who claim to know God exists are also closed minded?[/b]

My aim and intention in posting is to inform all the posters whatever views and information I want to share. Debates are welcome if these center around the points involved. Criticism is also very much welcome as it elucidates many points which one might have opposed before or not even been aware of before. I have been criticised before and have not been bothered about it, indeed I have learnt a lot from it. But I am disgusted if argumentum ad hominem is used or if my personal qualities are ridiculed or called into question. All are equal at the Forum and nobody talks down on me or anyone else.
Any theist who claims to KNOW that God exists, will not be typing out posts on RHP but being a liberated soul will either be one with God or be engaged in guiding the rest of humanity across this Sansar-Chakra. Any theist who therefore says that he/she KNOWS God, on the RHP, is definitely a fraud.
May be the Atheists who claim to KNOW that God does not exist are in a minority compared to others such as agnostic atheists etc. I do hope that they will see the error of their thinking.

Originally posted by JS357

i)" Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration-courage,
clear thinking, honesty, fairness and above all, love of truth "

Probably a repressed childhood.

ii) " Knowledge is impossible "

Self-canceling statement.

iii) " No truth was quite true"

Nonsensical or poetic.

[quote]iv) " ...[text shortened]... ality, and contemplating the idea is as close as we can get to that aspect of reality.

i ) H.L.Mencken idolised Ambrose Bierce. That explains why acid was flowing in his veins rather than blood. Moreover he sided with the Germans in WW1 and WW2 both !
He did not like the Jews either and hated people from the southern part of USA. Explains a lot about him.
ii) This is the position of Die-hard Skeptics. Die-hard Skepticism appears to me a futile dead end in thinking. Indeed thought is then probably of no use to such persons.
iii) Statement by F.H. Bradley. Same comment as above.
iv) I will come back to it a bit later, please excuse me.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
My aim and intention in posting is to inform all the posters whatever views and information I want to share. Debates are welcome if these center around the points involved. Criticism is also very much welcome as it elucidates many points which one might have opposed before or not even been aware of before. I have been criticised before and have not been ...[text shortened]... others such as agnostic atheists etc. I do hope that they will see the error of their thinking.

I know God does not exist. By 'God' here, I mean some divine person, omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly benevolent. I don't mean I'm absolutely certain of this, just that I know it.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
May be the Atheists who claim to KNOW that God does not exist are in a minority compared to others such as agnostic atheists etc. I do hope that they will see the error of their thinking.

I will only see the error in my thinking when someone explains to me (in language I can understand,) where the error is. You say I am closed minded, but wont explain why or what you mean by this.
I am not sure if it is argumentum ad hominem but it sure sounded like one, so I want clarification.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I will only see the error in my thinking when someone explains to me (in language I can understand,) where the error is. You say I am closed minded, but wont explain why or what you mean by this.
I am not sure if it is argumentum ad hominem but it sure sounded like one, so I want clarification.

I did not say that you have a closed mind. If, by any chance, you have got the impression that I said so, I am sorry. After all we both continue to exchange views on this issue. However, there are real limitations on the language used in arguments about God. I can only hope that a convincing experience comes your way.

Originally posted by bbarr
I know God does not exist. By 'God' here, I mean some divine person, omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly benevolent. I don't mean I'm absolutely certain of this, just that I know it.

God can be located right inside oneself. If that is too difficult, we can see God whereever we look for him/her/it. I find God to be present in the eyes of my 5 month old grandson when he gives me a terrific smile.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
God can be located right inside oneself. If that is too difficult, we can see God whereever we look for him/her/it. I find God to be present in the eyes of my 5 month old grandson when he gives me a terrific smile.

I agree, in sentiment, but I just don't think there is any meaningful interpretation of the word 'God' that both fits these experiences and tracks common usage. I find joy and contentment within, where I'm not even really there, or am there, but not as me, or as me, but only as that which is the ground of experience, or something like that I can't express (and typically, here, don't bother to try). I have some form of experiential knowledge, but not of this or that claim. It is not as though there is a set of representations I take to be accurate regarding something other. There is no way to say it. So when I hear the religious make this or that claim, I function as a philosopher. In that guise, I am an atheist.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I did not say that you have a closed mind.

So who were you referring to when you said:"I am presuming that you have not closed your mind like many atheists usually do." Am I not one of the 'many atheists'?

However, there are real limitations on the language used in arguments about God. I can only hope that a convincing experience comes your way.
So you are convinced that I have an error in my thinking, but have no way of explaining where that error is?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
My aim and intention in posting is to inform all the posters whatever views and information I want to share. Debates are welcome if these center around the points involved. Criticism is also very much welcome as it elucidates many points which one might have opposed before or not even been aware of before. I have been criticised before and have not been ...[text shortened]... others such as agnostic atheists etc. I do hope that they will see the error of their thinking.

But I am disgusted if argumentum ad hominem is used or if my personal qualities are ridiculed or called into question.

Look, let's get a sense of perspective here. I told you i didn't think you knew what you were talking about, that is all. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with my forum manners, nothing to do with ad hominem's, nothing to do with your personal qualities being ridiculed and it has nothing to do with me talking down to you. I thought you were talking nonsense and i explained why, and i still stand by it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So who were you referring to when you said:"I am presuming that you have not closed your mind like many atheists usually do." Am I not one of the 'many atheists'?

[b]However, there are real limitations on the language used in arguments about God. I can only hope that a convincing experience comes your way.
So you are convinced that I have an error in my thinking, but have no way of explaining where that error is?[/b]

I think you have an open mind, although you are an atheist. If I am asked to place you, you may be somewhere between an agnostic atheist and an atheist. It is I who faces a difficulty in the use of language when dealing with the issue of God. Hence I am unable to make you understand my view. Unless you have prejudiced and are determined not to accept the theistic argument, which I think you are not.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I was surfing the net recently and reading about Skepticism. Some findings there shocked me, some made me think that I must bring them to the notice of fellow theists for their comments. Of course, atheists are also welcome to comment and elucidate, but ,probably they already know this stuff by heart ! So, here goes !

i)" Religion is fundamentally o ...[text shortened]... may require a separate thread. If you
think so, by all means form separate threads.

i)" Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration-courage,
clear thinking, honesty, fairness and above all, love of truth "------H.L.Mencken.

Fair enough (though I certainly don't want to associate myself with his political views, this statement is one I can probably get behind)

ii) " Knowledge is impossible "---Philosophical Skepticism tenet. Really ? A one
stroke destroyer of Science and Religion both.

"Absolute knowledge is impossible" is, I think, pretty self evident in almost everything except pure maths and logic. It certainly is a blow against religion but not science since science accepts it. This is why science always tests hypotheses and theories and is always ready to update itself when new evidence come in.

iii) " No truth was quite true "---F.H.Bradley

Don't understand what that is trying to say.

iv) " Truth is an ideal expression of the Universe; at once coherent and
comprehensive. It must not conflict with itself, and there must be no
suggestion which fails to fall inside it. Perfect truth in short must realize the
idea of a systematic whole "--- F.H.Bradley again

Sounds reasonable.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Unless you have prejudiced and are determined not to accept the theistic argument, which I think you are not.

I don't think I am determined not to accept any argument, the problem here is that no reasonable theistic argument has been presented to me.

I do however think I am very much an atheist by your definition with very little agnosticism. The only reason I would possibly refuse to state emphatically 'no god exists' is that 'god' in this context is so loosely defined that it would be foolish of me to make such a claim. But for most specifically defined entities of 'gods' that I have come across (ie where someone has specified a set of attributes) I would state that I am sure that no such entity exists. There are of course some people (some Buddhists and Einstein for example) whose definition of 'God' I have not been able to understand and thus cannot really make a statement about.