23 Dec 07
Originally posted by Red NightAs a Zennist, I am a non-dualist. Therefore, I disagree with dualist theism. Dualism versus non-dualism is really the great divide. There is, for example, a very broad stream of non-dualism in rabbinical Judaism (where it is, by and large, not considered heretical), but there is also a dualist stream as well. Though they use the same religious vocabulary (e.g., from the written and oral Torahs), they understand it differently.
I like Buddhism and Taoism. I also like some aspects of christianity, johanine thought in particular.
I also like some aspects of zoroastrianism.
I'm sure you understand what I say when I say that making one pre-eminent is somewhat exclusionary. I think that is also a buddhist concept.
Would it be wrong in your mind to extend that concept of acc ...[text shortened]... no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
As another example Kashmiri Shaivism is a thoroughly non-dualistic system—as fully non-dualistic as Advaita Vedanta—but uses what would appear, at first blush, to be dualistic-theistic language.
I don’t know how one can bridge that gap: there is either a divine supernatural being in some way external to the natural cosmos, or there is not. There is ultimately either one, or (minimally) two. I do not find dualism offensive, I simply disagree (I hinted at why in my “essay”—thanks for the compliment by the way).
That is the point of the divide; there may be other areas of agreement.
Atheism is not uni-vocal. As a non-dualist, I am not a theist (under any standard usage of that word). But atheism can cover Buddhists, Taoists, Vedantists, etc., as well as those who might be described as simply rational-empiricists (for lack of a better term). We may not have much else in common—at that level—other than our not believing that there is some exoteric divine being. Rwingett, for example, would not describe himself as religious in any way; I describe myself as religious because I call Zen Buddhism a religion (albeit a non-theistic one); others do not consider Zen Buddhism to be a religion, but a spiritual philosophy. It really doesn’t matter that much to me.
Zen Buddhism, per se, is my expression because, at this time in my life, it works best for me. I have no quarrel with someone whose expression is Sufism, say, for the same reason. I read, and often quote, the Sufis as well. I read and quote the Hasidic rebbes, the Christian mystics (such as Meister Eckhart and Julian of Norwich), Lao Tzu, the Upanishads—and on and on.
Once again, the real divide, as I see it, is dualism or non-dualism, in whatever spiritual traditions those are expressed.
Now I’m going to pack it in for the night.
23 Dec 07
Originally posted by Red NightWhat about disbelief? Is that equal too?
I'm not a doctor.
But, yes all beliefs are equal. It is the height of conceit to believe that your god is better than others.
There is only one God, so we must all be worshipping the same one.
Is the belief that I am the Emperor of France equal to the belief that the earth goes round the sun?
24 Dec 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzWhich statement do you claim is demonstrably true?
Sorry, but if you can claim equality between two statements, one demonstrably true, and one the hallmark of a lunatic, you have no credibility as a debater.
That you are the king of france or that the earth is the center of the universe?
Because I thought they both were false.
24 Dec 07
Originally posted by Red NightI never said that the earth is the centre of the universe. All I said is that the earth goes round the sun. Do you deny this?
Which statement do you claim is demonstrably true?
That you are the king of france or that the earth is the center of the universe?
Because I thought they both were false.
24 Dec 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzI'm sorry. I misunderstood. I apologize.
I never said that the earth is the centre of the universe. All I said is that the earth goes round the sun. Do you deny this?
I thought you said that the sun went around the earth.
Obviously, the Earth goes around the sun.
24 Dec 07
Originally posted by Red NightSo is the belief that I am the Emperor of Japan (come on fact fiends, why did I choose that example? A candy apple for the winner!) equal to the belief that the Earth goes round the sun?
I'm sorry. I misunderstood. I apologize.
I thought you said that the sun went around the earth.
Obviously, the Earth goes around the sun.
24 Dec 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzAnd now Red Night will claim that by the term "belief" he actually meant something like "worldview" or "evaluative framework".
So is the belief that I am the Emperor of Japan (come on fact fiends, why did I choose that example? A candy apple for the winner!) equal to the belief that the Earth goes round the sun?