Stigmata

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Please, let us in on the joke, Saint Ivanhoe.

I don't know why you bother, Doc. I can't remember the last time
Ivanhoe contributed an original thought worthy of consideration on
this forum. His original contributions have consisted almost entirely
of heckling like in this thread.

Nemesio

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
OK, based on what was presented during the show, I have to conlcude that stigmata are most likely intentional frauds, or possibly unintentional frauds that result from psychological delusion.

Does anybody else find differently based on the show?

One thing that I learned was that crucifiction with nails in the palms is in fact possible according ...[text shortened]... will be interesting to see what effect the latest experimental results have on future stigmata.

All I know is that I don't want to be part of those experiments!!!

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Don't Anglicans have crucifixes with corpses on them .... and what about the Orthodox ?

Perhaps. Everytime that I've seen one, it's been in a Catholic church or in the home of Catholics, or occasionally in stores or as jewelry.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
OK, based on what was presented during the show, I have to conlcude that stigmata are most likely intentional frauds, or possibly unintentional frauds that result from psychological delusion.

Does anybody else find differently based on the show?

One thing that I learned was that crucifiction with nails in the palms is in fact possible according ...[text shortened]... will be interesting to see what effect the latest experimental results have on future stigmata.

It seems like the RCC generally agrees that they are not real supernatural occurrences. I found the case of the Korean woman who the local church regards as a fraud quite interesting. The guy from the Vatican seemed to leave open the possibility that real stigmata COULD occur, without committing himself to the view that they ever actually HAVE occurred. I thought that was quite illuminating.

Originally posted by lioyank
Speaking of (doubting) Thomas...

No, seriously, is there anything that you would believe without actually seeing for yourself firsthand? You believe that people exist a couple thousand miles away on a separate continent, with different languages and cultures. Obviously, you can't have experiences with ALL of these people at the same time. So is it that d ...[text shortened]... o be one, or are you so brainwashed that you would tell yourself it was "just my imagination"?

You refuse to articulate a position. How can anyone know if they really agree or disagree?
You throw something out there that, of itself, is riddled with problems, then scoff when people
wish for you to clarify.

Thousands of people couldn't explain what? It's not even clear what you are talking about in
this post.

Nemesio

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
OK, based on what was presented during the show, I have to conlcude that stigmata are most likely intentional frauds, or possibly unintentional frauds that result from psychological delusion.

Does anybody else find differently based on the show?

One thing that I learned was that crucifiction with nails in the palms is in fact possible according ...[text shortened]... will be interesting to see what effect the latest experimental results have on future stigmata.

What proof did they give for their "conclusions" ?

Usually these kinds of "fact"-finding documentaries are loaded with terms such as "maybe", "might", "could", "possibly", "probably", "most likely", etc, etc. ..... oh, I forgot to mention this gem .... "if, then".

DoctorS: "It will be interesting to see what effect the latest experimental results have on future stigmata."

Probably again some very enlightening documentaries aired on the National Geographic Channel.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
What proof did they give for their "conclusions" ?

A variety of demonstrations illustrating several ways in which the phenomenom can be faked or duplicated in a convincing manner at will.

The observation that the Church has caught and documented many fraudulent cases.

The observation of the shifting location of the stigmata coincident in time with what people believe to be the location of the nails.

Biological evidence relating fasting to delusion and self-mutilation, and the observation that many stigmata cases were preceeded by fasting.

The observation that Padre Pio's body at death had no scars.

The observation that many stigmata cases have a monetary incentive, and thus a motive to exhibit the phenomenon.

The observation that the Church itself has only officially deemed one stigmata case as genuine.

No1 can fill in any that I have left out.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

Usually these kinds of "fact"-finding documentaries are loaded with terms such as "maybe", "might", "could", "possibly", "probably", "most likely", etc, etc. ..... oh, I forgot to mention this gem .... "if, then".

If you want "certainly," "unquestionably," "infallibly," and "steadfastly," tune to EWTN.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
A variety of demonstrations illustrating several ways in which the phenomenom can be faked or duplicated in a convincing manner at will.

The observation that the Church has caught and documented many fraudulent cases.

The observation of the shifting location of the stigmata coincident in time with what people believe to be the location of the n ...[text shortened]... nly officially deemed one stigmata case as genuine.

No1 can fill in any that I have left out.

"The observation that Padre Pio's body at death had no scars."

What does this prove, according to the docu's makers ?

Did they present photographs or films showing Padre Pio's stigmata ?

Who was speaking on behalf of the Church and to which Vatican "department" did he belong ?
What was his function in the RC church ?

"The observation that the Church itself has only officially deemed one stigmata case as genuine."

Which case was that ?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
If you want "certainly," "unquestionably," "infallibly," and "steadfastly," tune to EWTN.

EWTN ?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
A variety of demonstrations illustrating several ways in which the phenomenom can be faked or duplicated in a convincing manner at will.

The observation that the Church has caught and documented many fraudulent cases.

The observation of the shifting location of the stigmata coincident in time with what people believe to be the location of the n ...[text shortened]... nly officially deemed one stigmata case as genuine.

No1 can fill in any that I have left out.

I think that sums up the main points, but it should be added that the show did have interviews with RCC officials, including one from whatever they call the Inquistion these days (is it Office of the Congregation of the Faith?). NewAdvent states in its article regarding stigmata:

But if the progress of medical sciences and psycho-physiology should present serious objections, it must be remembered that neither religion or mysticism is dependent on the solution of these questions, and that in processes of canonization stigmata do not count as incontestable miracles.

So the RCC isn't convinced of the miraculous nature of stigmata, either.

Originally posted by lioyank
How do atheists explain this?

Fraud. Goes with the territory, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by ivanhoe

What does this prove, according to the docu's makers ?

Who was speaking on behalf of the Church and to which Vatican "department" did he belong ?
What was his function in the RC church ?

The missing scars are consistent with Pio never having any wounds.
They are also consistent with him being unable to fake them, since he was dead.

A few people spoke on behalf of the Vatican. The main one had a big scary title, something like Head of the Office of Defense and Protection of Dogma. Ironically, he was a meek bald man with glasses.

The one confirmed case was St. Francis.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
"The observation that Padre Pio's body at death had no scars."

What does this prove, according to the docu's makers ?

Did they present photographs or films showing Padre Pio's stigmata ?

Who was speaking on behalf of the Church and to which Vatican "department" did he belong ?
What was his function in the RC church ?

"The observation th ...[text shortened]... hurch itself has only officially deemed one stigmata case as genuine."

Which case was that ?

It didn't "prove" anything, but it was an interesting fact.

There was an official from the Office of the Congregation of the Faith and some other officials, including a Korean priest who had investigated a stigmata case in Korea (according to the program, the RCC leaves the investigation of such matters to the local dioceses).

St. Francis of Assisi I believe.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
EWTN ?

That's the Catholic cable network here.