28 Mar 11
Originally posted by greenpawn34First of all I must congratulate you for a very poetic defence of Atheism ever seen by me on this thread or for that matter on Spirituality Forum.
Hi Doward.
OK.
You mentioned Socrates.
Did Socrates not preach that you must question everything.
This eventually led to him being put to death for atheism (questioning
the Gods of his day).
Science has advanced 100 fold since the day of Socrates and yet with
every advancemett the church has tried to stop it.
It banned books, putting t ...[text shortened]... n posted missing.
Perhaps he has fallen through a hole in the ozone layer.
It seems that you are attacking Organised Religion.You are quite right.Organised Religions everywhere ( except Hinduism and Buddhism ) have been responsible for spilling blood of millions etc. How is God to held responsible for what the religious fanatics did ?
Your concept of God appears to me to be some kind of a do-gooder sitting up in the clouds and now neglecting his duties of helping Mankind overcome diseases and calamities like earthquakes and so on. Many people have this kind of primitive concept of God as a sort of ATM machine showering all sorts of goodies on Mankind alone.
Man idealised his concept of God when he was relatively one of the less powerful species on the earth and when the scientific tools that he would eventually develop were not there in all their range etc. But he felt an urge for praying to God-may be out of his fear or ignorance or both- but also from a deep seated feeling that the wondrous world that he was experiencing daily was somebody's Creation. So he thought God was Omniscient,Omnipotent and so on. Nothing wrong in that.
These primitive concepts have not stopped certain philosophers and seers in Hinduism/Buddhism from going further afield. They simply state that we cannot know God by our mental faculties. He/She/It cannot be described. He has to be experienced.
Science has not helped mankind to erase all the diseases and grief on this planet. It is a tool that is limited in its scope and does not answer basic questions like What is Mass,What is Gravity let alone metaphysical questions like What is the nature of Reality,why are the rules of Science are the way they are.
Should we blame Science for not predicting Earthquakes and the Technology-the offspring of Science- for not enabling the survival of people in the quake affected region ? My friend.look inside for your answers.
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by greenpawn34How many children die each day of starvation?
Hi Doward.
OK.
You mentioned Socrates.
Did Socrates not preach that you must question everything.
This eventually led to him being put to death for atheism (questioning
the Gods of his day).
Science has advanced 100 fold since the day of Socrates and yet with
every advancement the church has tried to stop it.
It banned books, putting t ...[text shortened]... n posted missing.
Perhaps he has fallen through a hole in the ozone layer.
Good question. Is God causing them to starve or is it the greed of humankind? I think we both know the answer to that.
Socrates questioned what the traditional view of the Gods were, he was not an athiest. He was executed (I call it rational suicide) because he corrupted the youth, not for athiesm. He could have easily avoided execution, anyone who has read the Apology understands both of these points.
God could have created a more stable planet to live on?
This is the hubris of which I spoke. A planet with no volcanic activity, or weather, or any of the other things that sometimes can be dangerous, also cannot sustain life. Take away any of the things you mentioned and the ecosystem is thrown out of balance.
On a side note geologists are theorizing that the increased volcanic and tectonic activity is directly related to global warming. Massive amounts of ice have melted and the weight has shifted from the polar icecaps to the ocean floor, this pressure shift is causing tectonic activity....our bad....whoops
No one has disagreed that certain factions of the (Christian)church have attempted to supress science and enlightened thinking. However it is unfair to catagorize all religion and all of christianity as backward thinking and oppressive. Many of the great scientists of the age of enlightenment were priests, or were educated by priests...Jesuit priests.
Occam was a priest, Newton wrote books on biblical hermenuetics, many of the great minds of the enlightenment were ordained clergy in the church of England or were (again) catholic priests, so stop with the nonsense of inferring that education means one must be against religion, or that religion is against eductaion.
My church would most certainly allow someone to raise their hand and ask a question. Questions are welcomed, but standing up and shouting "There is no God" would be unwelcome. If you believe there is no God, then don't come to church. I don't go to Evolutuionary science classes at the local Uni and interupt the lecture with my religous views. Its called having good manners. By all means ask a question, but show everyone there the same courtesy that you yourself would expect to recieve.
I do indeed stand in wonder at the beauty of the world. Even at the scab on the young boys face. I stand in wonder that God created such an amazing and complex biological creature such as the human being, I stand in wonder at the forsight that thought of blood clotting that causes scabs. I stand in wonder at the immune system that fights that infection. I stand in wonder that life exists at all for the probabilty of life existing is numerically beyond belief, yet here we are. The probabilty of abiogenesis is statistically impossible and has been soundly discreditied. Yet here I write to you from across the planet; a complex and highly evolved life form, capable of reason, capable of rational thought...we are fearfully and wonderfully made.
28 Mar 11
Hi rvsakhadeo
I know nothing at all about Hinduism or Buddhism any any religion
really outside of Christianity.
I don't know if any of them have the answers, I've given up looking.
The concept of God appearing to me to be some kind of a do-gooder
was something I was taught as a Christian and forced to believe in.
(you are right it is a primitive concept).
When that ideal came tumbling down you feel conned.
And when you learn how much Christianity has murdred and mutilated it's
way through history to stifle knowledge that undermines it then you feel angry and conned.
I do totally despair when I see the suffering going on all the world
but there is nothing I can do about it.
I work and pay taxes. My country gives some of that tax to undeveloped
countries to feed their children, some of it goes on buying bombs to
drop on complete strangers.
I cannot say where I want my money chanelled and if I stop paying
taxes I get thrown in jail. What am I meant to do?
God's inactivity is not proof he does not exist but it does not say
much for his existence either.
If God wants me then he knows where I am.
I am not going to go out of my way to find him.
(I've been conned once before, never again).
I'm firmly convinced there is no God and as my time here is limited,
I'll be a long time dead. So I am going to have as much fun as I can.
Not a bad way of looking at things I suppose . I do not harm anyone.
If I'm wrong...Then the joke will be on me and I'll sit on a sunbeam and laugh.
If I'm right....Then I won't care will I.
28 Mar 11
Hi Doward.
"Is God causing them [children] to starve or is it the greed of humankind?
I think we both know the answer to that. "
I'd say it was mankind. full stop.
You say it was mankind created by God.
As I said.
You cannot pick and choose the good bits and ignore the bad bits.
He is either responsible for everything or nothing at all.
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by greenpawn34These feelings of frustration that you now feel ,the Angst,is felt by every seeker of God/Ultimate Reality/Truth whatever name you give it. It is a good sign. Do not run away from the Search because,you do not have answers today.Face the questions without fear and without boredom. Nothing prevents you from enjoying the fruits of your work,but when you do enjoy,think of the Prime Cause of this fruit and don't forget it. When you enjoy TV and play Chess for a moment think of the way your eyes are helping you or the way your brain is made capable of thinking of the moves and then you will not regard the Science- that enabled the TV to be made or the Internet that shows you the moves- as the last word on this planet.
Hi rvsakhadeo
I know nothing at all about Hinduism or Buddhism any any religion
really outside of Christianity.
I don't know if any of them have the answers, I've given up looking.
The concept of God appearing to me to be some kind of a do-gooder
was something I was taught as a Christian and forced to believe in.
(you are right it is a primi ...[text shortened]... me and I'll sit on a sunbeam and laugh.
If I'm right....Then I won't care will I.
28 Mar 11
Originally posted by greenpawn34the good bit is that we have free will, the bad bit is that we have free will
Hi Doward.
"Is God causing them [children] to starve or is it the greed of humankind?
I think we both know the answer to that. "
I'd say it was mankind. full stop.
You say it was mankind created by God.
As I said.
You cannot pick and choose the good bits and ignore the bad bits.
He is either responsible for everything or nothing at all.