23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Rajk999I would agree the we are ultimately responsible for our choices. I would not blame God.
But .... James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
What do you think of this verse quoted by Galveston?
Is this verse talking about suffering and whether or not God is responsible for it ?
Manny
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75Forget about Adam and Eve for a minute. I'm talking about the "all have sinned, wages of sin is death/hell" teaching here.
Two major differances though. Adam and Eve were perfect and they were warned that they would die if they disobeyed. They had no inherited sin as we do so the decision was completely their own. But why did God even put the tree there for them to be tempted by? Did he have the right to do that?
Do we as parents not have the right to demand certian obediance from our children? But why the death penalty for Adam and Eve?
Does an unjust punishment suddenly become just if advance warning has been given? Not hardly.
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by galveston75Do you not see the gaping hole in that analogy though? As parents we hope that our offspring have a good life. But we are not god, we can't design our children to what ever specification we wish and nor are we able to control the environment in which they live. So it is understandable that parents have children and love them and hope for the best. God doesn't have that excuse.
God created man out of love. But if everyone views that as you do, we that are parents should never produce offspring. We hope they will all make the right decisions in life but most don't. So should we not have children because of fears of mistake they might make?
Of course the mistakes man has made hurts God just as mistakes our children make hurts us. So should we feel that we should not have produced them? I think not...
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by sumydidI don't know how you can type this stuff with a straight face.
To see all of life is nothing but suffering... all bad and no good, only emphasizes your separation from God. Get a grip man. If life is that bad, then do something about it besides blame the Creator who gave you every chance to be all you can be. It's not God's fault that you find yourself spiraling downward in a swirl of negativity.
Where did I say life was all bad or nothing but suffering? Go on, point to it. Now you realise you can't, perhaps you might consider responding to what I'm saying.
Don't get me wrong, I realise that you have faith that god is perfect and loving. If that's true, by definition, it can't be god's fault. But since you can't come up with a plausible account of how so much arbitrary suffering can be reconciled with your god, you might as well cut to the endgame and admit that you cannot meaningfully state god's purpose. It surpasses your understanding.
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by KellyJayIt doesn't matter if I wanted it all to be different. It isn't. I can't change the way the universe works. Hmmm, now who could have done that? Ah yes, god.
You want to over eat, smoke, beat someone, call someone names,
lie, cheat, steal, feed the hungry, heal the hurt, smooth over wounds,
tell the truth, give wanting nothing in return, and live with your choices?
Kelly
But since you take the all good/powerful/knowing god as a premise, you have to argue (with hilarious consequences) that this world could have been the best of all possible worlds, if man hadn't flubbed it up.
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by menace71Sufferring batters our egos and gives us a CHANCE to become stronger. We have to choose to become srtonger, suffering alone wont do it.
If God created the universe than indirectly at least He is responsible for suffering. Man's greed causes a lot of suffering. Why do some live that should be dead while others die that should live?? Why are some kids born retarded? Why are some kids born to crackhead parents?? I don't think there is a simple answer for these questions. Some would say suffering makes us stronger but does it?
Manny
Interestingly God only seems to hand out as much suffering as one can handle.
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by karoly aczelBut who created a universe in which suffering is required in order to get stronger?
Sufferring batters our egos and gives us a CHANCE to become stronger. We have to choose to become srtonger, suffering alone wont do it.
Interestingly God only seems to hand out as much suffering as one can handle.
How could your assertion that god only seems to hand out as much suffering as one can handle ever be falsified?
23 Jun 09
Originally posted by Lord Shark1.WE all chose it everyday. Viewed from another level, (which we all have the power to 'see'😉,there is no suffering.
But who created a universe in which suffering is required in order to get stronger?
How could your assertion that god only seems to hand out as much suffering as one can handle [b]ever be falsified?[/b]
2.It is just an assertion,however,by and large I believe it is quite an accurate one.
(depends on where you are on the 'peath'😉
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by karoly aczel1. We all chose (choose?) what everyday? I wasn't consulted when the universe was made, i didn't choose it to be designed in such a way that suffering is required. So I reject this point.
1.WE all chose it everyday. Viewed from another level, (which we all have the power to 'see'😉,there is no suffering.
2.It is just an assertion,however,by and large I believe it is quite an accurate one.
(depends on where you are on the 'peath'😉
2. I also reject the notion that this assertion is accurate, you might believe it but you haven't even indicated how it might be falsified. Your assertion just isn't plausible.
23 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Lord Shark1.The key difference in this point is our different interpretations of what we think "we" is
1. We all chose (choose?) what everyday? I wasn't consulted when the universe was made, i didn't choose it to be designed in such a way that suffering is required. So I reject this point.
2. I also reject the notion that this assertion is accurate, you might believe it but you haven't even indicated how it might be falsified. Your assertion just isn't plausible.
2. I have based this view on my observations of peoples lives. one classic example: Jesus' suffering. It sounded pretty bad . (especially if anthing like in that movie by scorsese). However Jesus got through his suffering with dignity and unwavering faith. a mighty effort for a mighty man
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23 Jun 09
Originally posted by karoly aczel
"1.The key difference in this point is our different interpretations of what we think "we" is"
I disagree. Regardless of who 'we' is, I didn't choose for suffering to be required for anything at all.
2. "I have based this view on my observations of peoples lives. one classic example: Jesus' suffering. It sounded pretty bad . (especially if anthing like in that movie by scorsese). However Jesus got through his suffering with dignity and unwavering faith. a mighty effort for a mighty man"
Then your view is flawed for a number of reasons, but the main one is that it seems immune from disconfirmation. I don't deny that some people can handle the suffering they encounter. What I do deny is that you have offered any good evidence that this is always the case, or even that it is the case most of the time.