The 12 apostles

Originally posted by whodey
According to Wiki it seems that Pual and Peter died about the same time if not the same day.

If I may, I would like to ask you a quesion myself. I assume that you would agree that the NT consistenty preaches on Christ and his subsequent resurrection. Therefore, since you do not beleive in the resurrection you must assume one of two things. The first a ...[text shortened]... to orchastrate what was written in the NT if not author such works by themselves. What say you?

I assume that you would agree that the NT consistenty preaches on Christ and his subsequent resurrection.

I don't agree for the four gospels, the four gospels alone don't agree with that.

All your argument will be valid if we know the authors of the NT, which is not the case. I have a big problem with this, because every where I read about the authority of the different books, I found doubt about it, and it is all concolutions from the style of writings and so on. Which makes me don't believe that it couldn't be trusted as a source about the 12 apostles. I don't know if this is clear for you.


So for your challange I didn't forget it, I just asked you what sources will accept, when you siad "authentic evidence". If I gave a reference to a history book for example will it be accepted.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]I assume that you would agree that the NT consistenty preaches on Christ and his subsequent resurrection.

I don't agree for the four gospels, the four gospels alone don't agree with that.

All your argument will be valid if we know the authors of the NT, which is not the case. I have a big problem with this, because every where I read about the ...[text shortened]... ntic evidence". If I gave a reference to a history book for example will it be accepted.[/b]

What I am looking for is evidence that the 12 apostles did not believe that Christ was not resurrected. After all, this is what the NT screams at us. Do you have any original verifiable manuscripts that one of the 12 apostles have written that state that they do not believe that Christ was resurrected? Do you have any historical evidence that they did not go on the great commision to preach the good news of the resurrection? Do you dispute any of the historical evidence I have provided about their preaching of the gospel and their subsequent demise?

Originally posted by whodey
According to Wiki it seems that Pual and Peter died about the same time if not the same day.

If I may, I would like to ask you a quesion myself. I assume that you would agree that the NT consistenty preaches on Christ and his subsequent resurrection. Therefore, since you do not beleive in the resurrection you must assume one of two things. The first a ...[text shortened]... to orchastrate what was written in the NT if not author such works by themselves. What say you?

I will show what Quran say about the 12 apostles to know my position:

(Nobel-Translation)(Aal-Imran)

48. And He -Allâh- will teach him -'Iesa -Jesus-- the Book and Al-Hikmah -i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc.-, -and- the Taurât -Torah- and the Injeel -Gospel-

49. And will make him -'Iesa -Jesus-- a Messenger to the Children of Israel -saying-: "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allâh's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allâh's Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.

50. And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurât -Torah-, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allâh and obey me.

51. Truly! Allâh is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -Alone-. This is the Straight Path.

52. Then when 'Iesa -Jesus- came to know of their disbelief, he said: "Who will be my helpers in Allâh's Cause?" Al-Hawâriûn -the disciples- said: "We are the helpers of Allâh; we believe in Allâh, and bear witness that we are Muslims -i.e. we submit to Allâh-."

53. Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger -'Iesa -Jesus--; so write us down among those who bear witness -to the truth i.e. Lâ ilâha ill-Allâh - none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh-.


That is one position, in another position:

(Nobel-Translation)(As-Saff)(o 14 o)

14. O you who believe! Be you helpers -in the Cause- of Allâh as said 'Iesa -Jesus-, son of Maryam -Mary-, to Al­Hawârîûn -the disciples-: "Who are my helpers -in the Cause- of Allâh?" Al­Hawârîeen -the disciples- said: "We are Allâh's helpers" -i.e. we will strive in His Cause!-. Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the uppermost.


I think this answers all your questions about the 12 disciples.

Originally posted by Nemesio
It would be interesting to know the citations for all of these histories. That is, when was the
Acts of Sts Andrew and Bartholomew penned and by whom (e.g.)?

Nemesio

P.S., No one who has studied the Greek reasonably believes that the author of the Gospel of St
John and the author of Revelation (singular!) was the same individual (except Biblical literalists).

Wow, no one believes this who studied Greek, you must really know
a lot of people. 🙂
Kelly

Originally posted by ahosyney
I will show what Quran say about the 12 apostles to know my position:

(Nobel-Translation)(Aal-Imran)

48. And He -Allâh- will teach him -'Iesa -Jesus-- the Book and Al-Hikmah -i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc.-, -and- the Taurât -Torah- and the Injeel -Gospel-

49. And will make him -'Iesa -Jesus-- a Messenger to most.


I think this answers all your questions about the 12 disciples.

I realize that the Quran states that thre resurrection of Christ never happened. I don't think any one would dispute that. After all, if it agreed that he has been resurrected, then you would be a Christian and not a Muslim. My question to you is did Mohammad get his information from verifiable sources or eye witnesses or was it all simply revealed to him by Gabrial? If it was by verifiable sources what are they?

It is my understanding that the Quran says that God took Jesus away from the cross and placed someone else there. Were did this come from other than from Mohammad some 600 years later?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Wow, no one believes this who studied Greek, you must really know
a lot of people. 🙂
Kelly

Everything he says is all Greek to me. 😛

Originally posted by whodey
What I am looking for is evidence that the 12 apostles did not believe that Christ was not resurrected. After all, this is what the NT screams at us. Do you have any original verifiable manuscripts that one of the 12 apostles have written that state that they do not believe that Christ was resurrected? Do you have any historical evidence that they did not ...[text shortened]... orical evidence I have provided about their preaching of the gospel and their subsequent demise?

Ok , lets try this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Apocalypse_of_Peter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Treatise_of_the_Great_Seth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Cyrene

Will this work for you...

Originally posted by KellyJay
Wow, no one believes this who studied Greek, you must really know
a lot of people. 🙂
Kelly

It would be trivial to prove me wrong, since a single example would suffice.

Find me just one Scripture scholar who is not a conservative Christian apologist who thinks that
Revelation was written by the same person as the author of the Gospel of Saint John. Like I said,
Biblical literalists need not apply.

Sure, someone who says 'It says "John," therefore it is John,' is going to say 'Here's proof you're
wrong.' But that's not scholarship. Scholarship is like science: you let the evidence draw the
conclusion, not your a priori assumptions. The techniques used with the Bible are honed in non-
Biblical contexts. To say that such conclusions are wrong is to say that the evidence against St
Paul's attributed authorship to the so-called Third Letter to the Corinthians is also questionable.

Find me just one textbook used for a survey of Christian literature in a non-Christian college (that is,
without preconceived conclusions). Just one article by an author who is willing to admit of any error
of content in the 'New Testament.' Just one citation by an author who doesn't think that Jesus
is the Christ.

Just one, and you've proven me wrong.

Nemesio

Originally posted by whodey
I realize that the Quran states that thre resurrection of Christ never happened. I don't think any one would dispute that. After all, if it agreed that he has been resurrected, then you would be a Christian and not a Muslim. My question to you is did Mohammad get his information from verifiable sources or eye witnesses or was it all simply revealed to him ...[text shortened]... ced someone else there. Were did this come from other than from Mohammad some 600 years later?

My question to you is did Mohammad get his information from verifiable sources or eye witnesses or was it all simply revealed to him by Gabrial? If it was by verifiable sources what are they?

Both,

I gave you some links , if you read them you will see that the idea of Jesus no being on the cross, was there years many years before the prophet. It is just this direction didn't have enough power by Romans to be included in Christianity.

I gave you this verses to show what I believe about the 12 apostles, nothing more, and to show what I believe about them, and what Message they lost their lives for.

Originally posted by whodey
Were did this come from other than from Mohammad some 600 years later?

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Kashmir-Lost-Suzanne-Olsson/dp/1419611755/ref=sr_1_15/002-6614597-0618420?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183614401&sr=8-15

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Tomb-India-Debate-Resurrection/dp/0895819465/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-6614597-0618420?ie=UTF8&qid=1183614401&sr=8-15

Originally posted by Nemesio
It would be trivial to prove me wrong, since a single example would suffice.

Find me just one Scripture scholar who is not a conservative Christian apologist who thinks that
Revelation was written by the same person as the author of the Gospel of Saint John. Like I said,
Biblical literalists need not apply.

Sure, someone who says 'It says "John," th ...[text shortened]... k that Jesus
is the Christ.

Just one, and you've proven me wrong.

Nemesio

Who is not a conservative Christian, a liberal Christian is okay?
I guess, I'll look into it, or not, do not worry about it either way.
If I come up with someone I guess their political or religious beliefs
would have to be found out and documented to suit your position and
I'm not sure I want to go through the motions.
Kelly

Originally posted by Nemesio
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Kashmir-Lost-Suzanne-Olsson/dp/1419611755/ref=sr_1_15/002-6614597-0618420?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183614401&sr=8-15

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Tomb-India-Debate-Resurrection/dp/0895819465/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-6614597-0618420?ie=UTF8&qid=1183614401&sr=8-15

That was interesting, I also found the following:

http://www.tombofjesus.com/2007/home.html

Originally posted by ahosyney
Ok , lets try this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Apocalypse_of_Peter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Treatise_of_the_Great_Seth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Cyrene

Will this work for you...

What you have here are Gnostic gospels. Here is what I found conerning gnostic gospels.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html

"A one-sentence description of Gnostcism: a religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the god of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body, a religion that preaches a hidden wisdom or knowledge only to a select group as necessary for salvation or escape form this world"

So do you agree with gnositic teachings? Is the god of this world the same God in the OT? Are we trapped in an evil physical body? Was Mohammad a gnostic or did he concur with such theology? If you plan on accepting the gnositc writings as true, then I presume you are willing to embrace such theology.

Also, this text is presumed to have been written about the time of the second epistle of Peter according to Wiki. Would you like to hear what Wiki says about the second epistle of Peter?

"The Second Epistle of Peter, on the other hand, appears to have been copied, in part, from the Epistle of Jude, and some modern scholars date its completion as late as 150 AD. Guess when Peter died? Was it anywhere near 150 AD? No, it was not. It more like around 64 AD, or at least according to Wiki. Therefore, the quesiton remains, who wrote the second epistle of Peter as well as the gnostic account of Peter? Could Peter have handed down writings that made it to either work? Who is to say? However, it is evident that Peter was long dead before any of these works had been completed.

Are there any other works that support the claim that Christ was not resurrected? I think the bulk of early Christian writings support such a notion. What does the proponderance of evidence for such an event show?

Originally posted by whodey
However, they knew that their Lord desired them to go spread the good news. They loved Jesus and they desired to please him because they knew God loves us all and desired for us all to hear the good news so that we might believe as well.

Why didn't God just zap the knowledge directly into every brain instead of going along such an easily corruptible road. Doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by whodey
What I am looking for is evidence that the 12 apostles did not believe that Christ was not resurrected. After all, this is what the NT screams at us. Do you have any original verifiable manuscripts that one of the 12 apostles have written that state that they do not believe that Christ was resurrected? Do you have any historical evidence that they did not ...[text shortened]... orical evidence I have provided about their preaching of the gospel and their subsequent demise?

What do you require as 'verification' for the manuscripts? Are your sources similarly 'verifiable manuscripts' written by one of the 12 appostles?