"The act of questioning is the point..."

Originally posted by wolfgang59
What exactly are you asking?
One question at a time.

Universal question: Do you believe in god? "No".

What do you believe in?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"St. Augustine Asks the Hard Questions Atheists Don’t Ask" August 15, 2012 By Thomas L. McDonald

"It’s fun to read or listen to super-duper-smart professional atheists (well, they think they’re smart) banging on about the book of Genesis. It’s a useful issue for them, because the primeval history in scripture is mysterious, complex, and rich ...[text shortened]... is not to question atheism nor to promote theism; rather to focus on the basic "concept of God".[/b]

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"The act of questioning is the point..."

".... And so on and so forth. Augustine is merciless with the text, probing it, comparing it against what we know of the world, searching for the deeper meaning, drawing on the science of the day to understand what it could all possibly mean. Sometimes he arrives at a settled answer, sometimes not. However, the act of faith, the act of the Christian, is taking place in the mere encounter with the scripture as he tries better understand the word of God...." (OP)
_________________________________

"St. Augustine Asks the Hard Questions Atheists Don’t Ask" August 15, 2012 By Thomas L. McDonald

"Yet in spite of his influence, his Literal Meaning of Genesis is very hard to find. As a major statement of his belief, it ranks with City of God and de Trinitate in scope and importance, yet you won’t even find a complete copy of it online, and it was left out of the major collections of the writings of the fathers of the Church." (2/4)
____________________________________

(continued) "When Augustine talks about the “literal” meaning, he doesn’t quite mean what you think he means. Today, a “literal” meaning is fundamentalism: the world was created in six 24-hour periods about 6000 years ago and Fred Flintstone rode around on a brontosaurus, etc, etc. This totally happened.

Augustine does not believe that at all. Augustine recognized two levels of scripture in most of his exegesis: literal and figurative. The figurative meaning was a kind of typology, in which each event in the Bible stands for something else, usually a prefiguration of Christ. It’s as Paul says in 1 Cor. 10:11: “All these things, however, happened among them in figure.” The literal meaning is what the text is saying. A text may be wholly figurative, such as the Song of Songs, and indeed some early interpreters read Genesis purely figuratively. Augustine himself did this in his On Genesis Against the Manichees.

In his literal interpretation, however, he’s trying to understand what Genesis really says. He’s not searching for either an analogy (the figurative meaning) or a purely literal meaning (what we now would call literalism or fundamentalism), but is instead querying the text about what it means. And for Augustine, it was vital that we understood this text in an intelligent way. He repeatedly warns against interpretations that defy the clear evidence of the sciences. He was extremely concerned that foolish Christians reading scripture too literally would bring discredit on the entire faith. His warning is one we still do well to heed:

“Whenever … [non-Christians] catch out some members of the Christian community making mistakes on a subject which they know inside out, and defending their hollow opinions on the authority of our books, on what grounds are they going to trust those books on the resurrection of the dead and the hope of eternal life and the kingdom of heaven, when they suppose they include any number of mistakes and fallacies on matters which they themselves have been able to master either by experiment or by the surest of calculations?” St. Augustine, The Literal Meaning of Genesis (I.19.39)

"Augustine rejected interpretations which defied the science of his day. If something in scripture contradicts a settled fact, then the job of the exegete is to arrive an reasonable interpretation of the passage. There can be no contradiction between two certainties. Where one is certain, the other must yield, whether that yielding takes place in the realm of science or scriptural interpretation. In the following centuries, both St. Thomas Aquinas and Galileo would cite the arguments developed by Augustine in these pages.

A barrage of questions open The Literal Meaning of Genesis. Ever the good Platonist, Augustine relentlessly queries the text in order to better reveal its meanings. Here’s a small sample from just a few opening pages. (The points are Augustine’s, but the wording is mine.)

* How did God produce something changeable and time-bound without any change in himself?

* What is meant by heaven and earth? Does it mean all spiritual and material creation? Material creation alone?

* What is the “abyss”? Is it unformed matter?

* What does it mean that “there was darkness over the abyss”? Is it merely
an absence of light, or is it a spiritual absence?

* How did God say “Let there be light”? He has no material form, and therefore cannot produces sounds. In any case, there was no language yet, for there were no humans in need of language, so what kind of words did he use?

* To whom did God say “Let there be light,” since no one else was there? Was He talking to himself?

* Did He say this in time, or out of time? Did he create a material being to say “Let there be light”?

* How was light made? Could light be made before heaven and earth?

* Was it a light that can be perceived with the eyes, or was it a different kind of light? Was the light spiritual, corporal, or both? How can there be light without sun?

* When did this creation happen in time? Did it happen in time? What is the origin point of creation?

* How long did it take? As long as it takes to utter the words of creation? Do we have to assume that God spoke really slowly in order to take a full 24-hour day to say “Let there be light?”

* When the water was collected, where was it collected if it already covered the entire earth? Where did it go so that dry land could emerge?

*How did God work and grow tired enough to need rest if He has no flesh?" (3/4)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2012/08/st-augustine-asking-the-hard-questions-atheists-dont-ask/

"Note: It's unlikely that either atheists or theists will concur with all of Thomas L. McDonald's conclusions. My purpose in presenting his paper is not to question atheism nor to promote theism; rather to focus on the basic "concept of God". (Pg 1)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Universal question: Do you believe in god? "No".

What do you believe in?

What exactly do you mean by "God" and by "believe in"?

Originally posted by JS357
What exactly do you mean by "God" and by "believe in"?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You don't care what I believe.
But to humour you.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow.
I believe the All Blacks will win their next game.
I believe my wife has blonde hair.

What exactly are you asking?
_______________________________

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Wouldn't ask if I didn't, wolfgang59.

"What exactly are you asking?"

Materialism? Humanism? Philosophical Questioning? Astrology? Socialism and Causes to ameliorate the living conditions of the destitute? HIV/Aids Medical Assistance? You don't give a blank about God or the person and work of Christ or His grace gift of salvation: what do you believe in [care about] besides the weather, games and your dear wife's lovely blonde hair?
___________________________________

Originally posted by wolfgang59
What exactly are you asking?
One question at a time.
______________________________________

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Universal question: Do you believe in god? "No".

What do you believe in?
_______________________________

Originally posted by JS357
What exactly do you mean by "God" and by "believe in"?

........................................................

JS, are you asking the same atheist question as wolfgang59?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by wolfgang59
[b]You don't care what I believe.
But to humour you.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow.
I believe the All Blacks will win their next game.
I believe my wife has blonde hair.

What exactly are you asking?
_______________________________

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Wouldn't as ...[text shortened]... .................................

JS, are you asking the same atheist question as wolfgang59?[/b]

About God:

Statements of belief in God have been called Creeds. Here is one called the Apostles Creed:

1. I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. Under Pontius Pilate, He was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.

I wonder if you believe all of that. Is there a statement of your belief that is like this, that covers the essentials for you?

Secondly, about belief:

I think atheists miss something when they equate what "believe in" means to believers, with the simple "believe is" like someone's blond hair. But if you state your creed and tell me "believe in God" means believing what the creed says, I will know what you are asking.

Would you care to comment?

Originally posted by JS357

What exactly do you mean by "God" and by "believe in"?

"Human Options At a Glance" (OP) Thread 156873

#1. God: O "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name [person] of the only begotten [uniquely born] Son of God." (John 3:16-18)

Human Beings: (?) Who are we? Why are we here? Where are we going? How will we get there?

#2. God: O

Person A. Positive Volition at God Consciousness: (+V) If you're up there, God, I'd like to know you.

Person B. Negative Volition at God Consciousness: (-V) Whether there's a god or not, I'm not interested.

#3. God: O The only issue for eternal relationship with God is a person's attitude toward the Person of Jesus Christ, God’s Perfect Gift. "What do you think about the Christ?" Matthew 22: 42

Person A. Positive Volition at Gospel Hearing (+V) "Believe in the Lord Jesus
and you shall be saved." (Acts 16:31a)... Father, I believe in Jesus Christ.

Person A. Negative Volition at Gospel Hearing (-V) "Believe in the Lord Jesus
and you shall be saved. "No thanks; I think I'll just live my life without god.

"But a natural man [unbeliever] does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them [the Gospel and Bible doctrine], because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14) "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey [the command to believe in] the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

___________________________________________

Originally posted by Proper Knob (Page 6)
"Have a stab Gramps, you couldn't do much worse than Suzianne.

"So how does one discern between 'Real Faith' and, I guess, 'Fake Faith'?" -Proper Knob

Faith: "Noun. Strong belief or trust in someone or something." Merriam-Webster; "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something." Oxford Dictionaries; "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1; "And the Lord said, If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed..." Luke 17:6 (Little more than none at all)

Even at our best, none of us can ever earn or deserve a relationship with God. Only the object of faith, Jesus Christ, has merit. An individual's faith in the person and work of Christ (His substitutionary spiritual death or separation from the Father at the crucifixion) makes personal salvation possible. What is that "faith"? Faith is simply your decision to believe (accept, receive) the message of Christ as true. Faith alone in Christ alone is salvation. Attitude toward Christ is the only issue.

Mechanics: 1) At a point in time, an unbeliever expresses personal interest in the Message of Christ; 2) God the Holy Spirit acts in place of the human spirit to make the spiritual phenomena of the Gospel (Good News of the completed work of the Risen Christ) understandable to that unbeliever; 3) If he or she then responds to God the Father by simply forming words in his or her own mind: Father, I believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit immediately makes that faith effective for salvation.

1 Corinthians 2:14 explains this spiritual phenomena: "But a natural man [unbeliever] does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them [the Gospel and Bible Doctrine] because they are spiritually discerned [appraised from the human spirit, which is acquired at the moment of regeneration].

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 The phrase "Real Faith and Fake Faith" represents a distinction without a difference. -Bob

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Universal question: Do you believe in god? "No".

What do you believe in?

I have already given you samples of what I believe in.
How am I supposed to figure out what answer you want?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I have already given you samples of what I believe in.
How am I supposed to figure out what answer you want?

wolfgang59, it's never been about what someone else wants; in context, the only person's wants that matter are yours.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Human Options At a Glance" (OP) Thread 156873

[quote]#1. God: O "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through ...[text shortened]... 3:36 The phrase "Real Faith and Fake Faith" represents a distinction without a difference. -Bob[/b]

Do I see a glimmer of you actually responding to my questions? Is John 3:16-18 the essence of your creed, the essence of what you urge us to believe?

Originally posted by JS357
Do I see a glimmer of you actually responding to my questions? Is John 3:16-18 the essence of your creed, the essence of what you urge us to believe?

Without Faith in Christ separation from God for eternity awaits.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Without Faith in Christ separation from God for eternity awaits.

Never pass up a chance to preach.

Originally posted by JS357
Never pass up a chance to preach.

You asked a question; you were given an accurate answer you didn't like.
Thanks for your many helpful posts. Any further questions?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You don't care what I believe.
But to humour you.


I believe the All Blacks will win their next game.
I believe my wife has blonde hair.

What exactly are you asking?

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow.

What unscientific, ancient, naive poetry did you get that concept from - that the sun will "rise" ? Come out of early Middle Ages wolfgang59.

The sun won't rise. The earth will rotate.
Take a course in natural science and get an education there !

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I have already given you samples of what I believe in.
How am I supposed to figure out what answer you want?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
I have already given you samples of what I believe in.
How am I supposed to figure out what answer you want?

wolfgang59, please see: Thread 158056

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
You asked a question; you were given an accurate answer you didn't like.
Thanks for your many helpful posts. Any further questions?

If it is your answer to what do you believe, I am fine with it.

GB: "Without Faith in Christ separation from God for eternity awaits."