07 Aug 05
Matthew 25:35-40:
"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me."
Assuming the christian god exists, do you agree or disagree with the following claims?
1. salvation hinges not on whether or not you know god, but on whether or not god knows you.
2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloamen
Matthew 25:35-40:
"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [ ...[text shortened]... on whether or not god knows you.
2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloIt looks to me like Matt is saying, "Works, not just faith".
Assuming the christian god exists, do you agree or disagree with the following claims?
1. salvation hinges not on whether or not you know god, but on whether or not god knows you.
2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.[/b]
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloYou want to claim you are known by someone you do not believe in?
Matthew 25:35-40:
"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [ ...[text shortened]... on whether or not god knows you.
2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
Kelly
07 Aug 05
1 edit
Originally posted by David Cjust deeds, "works" are miracles.. and "faith" ,not mentioned in the quoted post , was used by Christ only in the conjunction with miracles .I would imagine if Christ had intended to include belief in God as a pre-requisite for salvation, he would have said so here, since he was talking specificly about judgment day.
It looks to me like Matt is saying, "Works, not just faith".
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by frogstompOne piece of one conversation is not enough, you need to read all
just deeds, "works" are miracles.. and "faith" ,not mentioned in the quoted post , was used only in the conjunction with miracles by Christ .I would imagine if Christ had intended to include belief in God as a pre-requisite for salvation, he would have said so here, since he was talking specificly about judgment day.
that Jesus said on the matter.
Kelly
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayshow me where Christ says differently, remember you are saying that belief is a prerequisite for salvation. That's a high bar to reach , since it's implying Christ must have forgotten to mention belief.
One piece of one conversation is not enough, you need to read all
that Jesus said on the matter.
Kelly
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloThere seems to be a little bit of word-play going on here (which is nice to the ear, I'll admit) - the word "know" is being used in two senses in your questions.
Matthew 25:35-40:
"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [ ...[text shortened]... on whether or not god knows you.
2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
1. salvation hinges not on whether or not you know god, but on whether or not god knows you.
The first "know" (man knowing God) is, I presume, being used in the sense of believing in God. The second "know" (God knowing man) is being used in the sense of the Bible passage quoted; i.e. God acknowledging or accepting man into his kingdom.
So, does the salvation of a person depend on his/her belief in God or God's acceptance of the person into Heaven? In a sense, I would have to say, both. Of course no man can be saved unless he has God's grace; but neither can a man open himself to that grace if he wilfully and knowingly rejects God. So, an atheist who, to his dying breath, refuses even to say "If there is a God out there, I'm sorry!" has cut himself off from God's grace forever (no matter how "nice" a person he was in life - no man can ever do enough good to 'merit' salvation).
2. many atheists are better known to god than many christians.
I neither agree nor disagree with this statement. For two reasons - one, I do not know what state of soul any atheist has died in. Two, only God knows who's been saved and who's not.
Incidentally, your term "better known" belies the wordplay here. If you're using the word "know" as a synonym for partaking of God's grace, then it makes no sense to say one person is "better known" than another.
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by frogstompJoh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
show me where Christ says differently, remember you are saying that belief is a prerequisite for salvation. That's a high bar to reach , since it's implying Christ must have forgotten to mention belief.
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by KellyJayno. i want to understand why and if faith in god is a necessary condition for salvation. there is a bigger picture here than just 'LemonJello wants some salvation but doesn't want to work for it'.
You want to claim you are known by someone you do not believe in?
Kelly
chew on this: there are hords of people in the world who have never seen a bible, have no clue who the christian god allegedly is, and probably will never have the means to 'know' god. there are still many others who have been trained by social custom and influenced by their family to adopt religions other than christianity (without giving christianity much or any time or reflection). in some sense, all these people are basically implicit atheists with respect to the christian god.
IF 1. faith in your god is a necessary condition for entrance into heaven and 2. the only alternative to heaven is hell, THEN i would have to conclude that all these 'atheists' (billions, probably) are destined to be chucked into the fires like weeds pulled from the garden, with no nevermind given to the manners in which they carried themselves.
the main content of this thread is in the first claim; the second was rather tongue-in-cheek. i think most christians would say that faith and deeds are both necessary for salvation; but i am wondering why faith is necessary at all.
there are, of course, fundamental differences between the implicit atheist and the explicit or critical atheist. however, if faith turns out to not be necessary for salvation, then i don't see why god would prejudge one and not the other -- is god really that proud?
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by Halitosewhen you witness to others (say, someone who has never heard of the christian god), which do you consider more important: informing them of their need to acknowledge jesus, or informing them of their need to be like jesus? which is more important: faith or deeds?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
07 Aug 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloAcknowledging Jesus and accepting him as your Saviour is just the first step of becoming more like him.
when you witness to others (say, someone who has never heard of the christian god), which do you consider more important: informing them of their need to acknowledge jesus, or informing them of their need to be like jesus? which is more important: faith or deeds?