Spirituality
03 Aug 17
05 Aug 17
Originally posted by @apathistMatt is a fierce debater and knows his stuff, but unfortunately has a short temper, takes away too much time from his co-hosts and too often interrupts speakers.
http://atheist-experience.com/
Click on the YouTube channel, short segments dealing with individual callers. I am impressed by the host especially, Matt is sharp.
I identify, as far as this subject is concerned and in order of importance to me, as secular, atheist, and pagan. I'd like to bring my pagan view to the radio show but frankly I'm intimidated.
But it is still amusing to watch theists apply their lack of logic to Matt and watch the resulting mess.
05 Aug 17
Originally posted by @divegeesterIf so, I didn't see it. I've answered the question more than once. Not hiding anything nor shunning anyone, am I.
I asked him this a while ago and didn't receive a response.
05 Aug 17
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Originally posted by @kazetnagorraI have no faith belief, and no use for creator gods, revealed truth (prophets) or absolute morality or supernatural magic. I'm an atheist.
How can one be both atheist and pagan? That appears to be mutually contradictory to me.
I think it is possible or even likely that the biosphere of earth is sufficient substrate to give rise to mind. I'm a part of it. I believe I've heard or felt it. I couch my awareness of this in mythology, because I want to, because it seems to fit so well. It's a natural human thing to be aware of spiritual reality. So I love the great goddess, terra, mother nature on earth. I am pagan.
05 Aug 17
Originally posted by @moonbusWell said. In my experience though, we like using mythology as a sort of anchor, not because we think the myths are true, but because they already express what we feel.
Paganism typically does not labor under a load of doctrine in need of intellectual underpinnings and proofs of gods' existence. It is typically straight-forward celebration of life's rhythms, the bounty of nature, solar and cosmic cycles (solstices, that sort of thing). Dancing in tune with Nature....
Of course we get the nuts too, comes with being human I guess.
05 Aug 17
Originally posted by @great-king-ratHmm. And I was admiring his restraint. He doesn't suffer fools for very long, that's true.
Matt is a fierce debater and knows his stuff, but unfortunately has a short temper, takes away too much time from his co-hosts and too often interrupts speakers.
But it is still amusing to watch theists apply their lack of logic to Matt and watch the resulting mess.
I agree he should let the co-host have more leeway.
05 Aug 17
Originally posted by @apathistI view religion in general not as a body of metaphysical truths, but as collective emotional ballast, like the weight in a keelboat that keeps it from capsizing. Unlike some critics here who deride religion tout court as nothing but lies and outdated falsehoods, I believe that it helps some people by keeping them from acting out their inner turmoil. Unfortunately, it can be horrendously misused, too; IS is the current prime negative-example: it attracts criminals and gives them an excuse to act out their inner turmoil in the name of God. I am undecided whether to call that bad religion, or vicious ideology (more like Nazism).
Well said. In my experience though, we like using mythology as a sort of anchor, not because we think the myths are true, but because they already express what we feel.
Of course we get the nuts too, comes with being human I guess.
05 Aug 17
Originally posted by @moonbusI appreciate that you are not a casual thinker. But.
I view religion in general not as a body of metaphysical truths, but as collective emotional ballast, like the weight in a keelboat that keeps it from capsizing. Unlike some critics here who deride religion tout court as nothing but lies and outdated falsehoods, I believe that it helps some people by keeping them from acting out their inner turmoil. Unfortunat ...[text shortened]... me of God. I am undecided whether to call that bad religion, or vicious ideology (more like Nazism).
There are other ways to weight a keelboat. Have you wondered, why religion? Why, throughout history and even before and across virtually all cultures - why gods?
Originally posted by @apathistIt is difficult for humans to accept that life is meaningless and that the universe is really nothing but sub-atomic particles jittering. Humans have an abiding need to believe that life makes sense or has some purpose. Humans have from time immemorial read 'omens' and 'signs' into natural events, thus giving events a meaning or purpose. E.g., a plague is punishment for man's sins, etc. But if humans were fully conscious that such a meaning had merely been projected into events by themselves, then the events wouldn't really have the meaning, only the humans would. This is what Lichtenberg called "transcendental ventriloquism."
I appreciate that you are not a casual thinker. But.
There are other ways to weight a keelboat. Have you wondered, why religion? Why, throughout history and even before and across virtually all cultures - why gods?
So, why religion? For man to really believe that events really have meaning and purpose, man must believe that not man has read meaning into events — man must believe that events really have meaning in themselves. However, humans can scarcely imagine what a meaning or a purpose would be if not in human or human-like form (i.e., the form of an intention); "God" is the hypostatisation of the idea that life has meaning and purpose, God is the deux ex machina whereby events come to be invested with a meaning and purpose believable for man but not obviously projected by man into events. Of course, one has to believe in God first for that minor diversion to get off the ground … belief in sky cranes, as one philosopher put it. (Some) humans will sooner believe in a Reason they don't understand, than that there is no reason at all, why the universe is so. That's religion: not a body of metaphysical truths, but 'balm' applied to an abiding need in humans, "God's mysterious ways," "there is a grand plan known only to God," etc.
There is a notable exception: Buddhism. Buddhism postulates a meaning or purpose which is non-theistic and non-anthropomorphic, namely the law of karma. There is no Big Tooth Fairy in Buddhism; everything that happens in life is simply the playing out of prior consequences. There's no god punishing us and no devil tempting us. We suffer only because we are ignorant of causes and pass erroneous judgements on them (e.g., by imagining that 'bad' consequences are gods punishing us). The 'purpose' in Buddhism is to learn to stop attributing our suffering to anything but our own mis-judgement of those consequences.
Some theists deny that Buddhism is a religion, a) because belief in gods is optional in Buddhism, and b) because the Buddha did not claim any divine providence (as Christians do for Jesus and Muslims for Mohammed). Some theists claim Buddhism is more like secular humanism. I disagree that Buddhism is like secular humanism, because Buddhism does make claims of a transcendent nature (e.g, about past lives) for which there is hardly anything like scientific evidence. I consider Buddhism to be a non-theistic religion. It is religion in so far as it applies a similar sort of balm to a similar sort of need, but it does not require belief in deities to do that (hence, non-theistic).
And, yes, there are other ways to cross a body of water, quite without a deadweight under a keelboat. A catamaran or hovercraft, for example. Or learn to swim. Or befriend a dolphin and hang on. Or drain the lake and walk. Or build a bridge and charge toll to pay for the cost of construction. Or just be satisfied to live on this shore and look across in wonder. Humans are inventive creatures, are they not? But once people have gotten it into their heads that a keelboat is the only way to get across a certain body of water, it is extraordinarily difficult to persuade them to drop the deadweight and try something different. You confront people with a sort of existential panic if you suggest to them that their deadweight is not necessary, that there is another way. The vehemence with which theists defend their faith, and the abuse they heap on people who demonstrate how flimsy their 'arguments' are and how their pseudo-scientific 'evidence' fails, are signs of that existential panic.
Panic must be taken seriously. A large segment of society running around in a panic can literally sink the ship for everybody. That is why I do not dismiss religion out of hand as utterly useless lies. It does have a use, both social and individual.
06 Aug 17
I hear you moonbus and don't think any of your points are wrong, but I also see another impetus towards human religion. To the extent that we disconnect from our day-to-day world, you know, meditate and introspect, people tend to feel something that generally is described as an awareness of a higher reality, a feeling of this profound oneness with the natural world. The boundaries of self are malleable. We are part of something greater.
Wishy-washy touchy-feely crap I hate, but it seems to be universal and so in the interest of truth I can't justify dismissing it outright.
Solitary trips into the wilderness seem to be an incubator. For me that fact points in both directions - maybe isolation causes madness, or maybe when culture shuts up we can really hear.
06 Aug 17
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Spending a few nights in the desert can have a profound effect on a person, there’s no doubt of that. Seeing all those billions of stars in that vast darkness is humbling; it makes a man feel small and often has one of two common results: either he comes to see himself and his problems as trivial, or .... the Zaphod Beeblebrox response: this was all made for ME ME ME! This is hyperpole, of course, but you get the idea.
I am certainly in favor of (almost) any introspective path which leads a man to question his foundations and come to grips with his basic needs, both physical and spiritual. I do not doubt that man has spiritual needs. The doubt arises when people assert that a Big Tooth Fairy is there to fulfil those needs. Just because we have need, it by no means follows that there is any fulfilment; sometimes there is unfulfilled need, and one has to learn to live with that.
09 Aug 17
Originally posted by @moonbus...I do not doubt that man has spiritual needs. The doubt arises when people assert that a Big Tooth Fairy is there to fulfil those needs. Just because we have need, it by no means follows that there is any fulfilment; sometimes there is unfulfilled need, and one has to learn to live with that.I'm currently reading a book that addresses the very subject. The second of three books called The Science of Discworld. It's a strange genre with three authors - a fiction writer who created a fantasy world and two successful prolific science writers. I'm tempted to pull out quotes from the science chapters but I wouldn't know where to stop. It deals with with how religion arises and the good and bad points, in enough detail, and promises to give another view of it all. Haven't got to the punchline yet.
Terry Pratchett
Ian Stewart
Jack Cohen
09 Aug 17
Originally posted by @apathistFreaky's favourite book series no doubt!
I'm currently reading a book that addresses the very subject. The second of three books called [b]The Science of Discworld. It's a strange genre with three authors - a fiction writer who created a fantasy world and two successful prolific science writers. I'm tempted to pull out quotes from the science chapters but I wouldn't know where to stop. It dea ...[text shortened]... er view of it all. Haven't got to the punchline yet.
Terry Pratchett
Ian Stewart
Jack Cohen[/b]
lol
That's a good read man. I might have to revisit ..