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08 May 13
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sonhouse,
dragged kicking through Sunday School and subsequently now an expert on the Bible -
Which one of your contradictions effects one of these major teachings:
1. That the Son of God became a man.
2. That this Son of God lived a perfect life.
3. That this Son of God died a redemptive death for man's salvation.
4. That this Son of God rose again on the third day.
5. That the one believing in this Son of God receives forgiveness of sins.
6. The gift of the Son of God is eternal life.
7. That this Son of God can come into us as Spirit and live in us.
8. That this Son of God will physiclly return for His kingdom.
Which one of your contradictions forms a serious problem for these cardinal major teachings of the Bible ?
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08 May 13
The marraige of Christ is to His corporate Bride - the church sanctified and presented to Him without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.
This marraige you can read about in Revelation 19, 21 and 22.
Here He finds His match, His helpmeet, His counterpart.
We are today preparing corporately to marry the Lord Jesus.
Or we should be.
" Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.
And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses [sic] of the saints." (Rev. 19:7-9)
We prepare ourselves as Christians to marry Christ by allowing Him to dispense more and more of His life and nature into us. That is to live out Christ and allow Him to live His life through us in righteousnesses or righteous deeds.
By all means Christ is securing for Himself a Bride and a Wife in this sense.
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08 May 13
4 edits
sonhouse,
You all know the bit where in Leviticus it goes, men are worth 50 shekels and a women only 35. The thing about that, besides being sexist, is if you view the rights of women around the world, you find in some countries in Africa, they get genital mutilation so they cannot derive pleasure from sex. Or in China where girl babies are killed AFTER they are born BECAUSE they are girls. You can see how well THAT turned out, now with villages made up of 70% men and REALLY ticked off there are not enough women to go around so now there are these gangs of young men creating hell for China. The point about all that is this is a HUMAN trait.
First I don't think you should blame the problems in China with too few women on Deuteronomy or Leviticus.
You could place some responsibility however on the practice of abortion , government endorsed and run wild. Girls were aborted by the millions in favor of boys who supposedly would be more security to aging parents.
And please do not blame the horrible practice of female circumcision on the Christian faith or on the Bible.
Now the 50/35 shekel matter ? What verse in Leviticus are you refering to ?
08 May 13
Originally posted by sonshipI thought you were the expert on the bible. Try Leviticus 27.
sonhouse,
[quote] You all know the bit where in Leviticus it goes, men are worth 50 shekels and a women only 35. The thing about that, besides being sexist, is if you view the rights of women around the world, you find in some countries in Africa, they get genital mutilation so they cannot derive pleasure from sex. Or in China where girl babies are killed ...[text shortened]... r on the Bible.
Now the 50/35 shekel matter ? What verse in Leviticus are you refering to ?
It starts 'And the lord spoke unto Moses', coming directly from your god. Read it. The part where women are worth 30 shekels and a man 50 or so. Leviticus 27-4.
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sonhouse says
You all know the bit where in Leviticus it goes, men are worth 50 shekels and a women only 35. The thing about that, besides being sexist,
Without getting into too much depth it is fair to say that probably because the MALE was able to participate in WARFARE in Israel as a soldier the valuation of the boy was more than that of the girl in the vow instructions of Leviticus 27:1-7
I don't think this is sexist in the sense of men are better then women in the eyes of God.
If sonhouse wants to challenge this we can take it further. Otherwise, it is likely that soldiering was in mind. Warfare in the ancient Near East was simply a fact of national life. And it was usually carried out by males.
08 May 13
Originally posted by sonshipThere is nothing in those verses suggesting anything about warfare. It is just the early jews codifying the superiority of males over females. This did not come from a god. Anyone who thinks it did has holes in their heads.
sonhouse says
You all know the bit where in Leviticus it goes, men are worth 50 shekels and a women only 35. The thing about that, besides being sexist,
Without getting into too much depth it is fair to say that probably because the MALE was able to participate in WARFARE in Israel as a soldier the valuation of the boy was more than ...[text shortened]... at soldiering was in mind. Warfare in the ancient Near East was simply a fact of national life.
08 May 13
2 edits
Originally posted by sonhouseThere is no claim that everything written in the Holy Bible came directly from God and is God approved. Surely, they wrote their own history and they devised there own civil laws and economic and social systems that they believed was in keeping with God's laws.
There is nothing in those verses suggesting anything about warfare. It is just the early jews codifying the superiority of males over females. This did not come from a god. Anyone who thinks it did has holes in their heads.
But the 10 commandments came directly from God. And the Genesis account of creation was inspired of God. So was many of the Psalms and the proverbs (songs and poems) and the visions and dreams of the prophets. So there is no need to get hung up on values they place on women, etc. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
The Instructor
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08 May 13
11 edits
There is nothing in those verses suggesting anything about warfare. It is just the early jews codifying the superiority of males over females. This did not come from a god. Anyone who thinks it did has holes in their heads.
Okay then you do want to argue it further.
I have already provided you with many passages where the woman was placed on equal honor with the man and even sometimes mentioned BEFORE the man.
Ie. Levitcus 19:3 - Everyone of you shall reverence HIS MOTHER and his father"
The book of Levitcus was the intructions written before "the army of Jehovah" was to enter Canaan. A huge part of entering Canaan was warfare. So many things related to consecration to God were directly enfluencial upon Israel's ability as Jehovah's army to prevail over the enemies in the land to which they were going.
But if it makes the women folk feel better, the prophetess Deborah was a leader in a decisive battle latter in the book of Judges. And the MAN in charge refused to go out to fight unless the consecrated prophetess Deborah went with him.
Read Judges 4:1 through 5:31. I include only a portion here:
"Now Deborah was a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth. She judged Israel at that time. And she would sit under the palm of Deborah, between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim. And the children of Israel went up to her for judgment" (Judges 4:4,5)
So this woman was wise and devoted to Yahweh. She decided hard cases among the Israelites like an ancient Judge Judy.
God has a way of making sure you see His rules will not box Him in. He can make exceptions. And Deborah warns the military leader that God will defeat the enemies of Israel in this instance by a woman.
"And Barak [ our macho male soldier ] said to her, If you will go with me, I will go; but if you do not go with me, I WILL NOT GO." (Judges 4:8)
So much for Rambo!
And the consecrated prophetess gives reply - "And she said, I will surely go with you. However there will be no glory for you on the journey you are taking, for Jehovah will sell Sisera [the enemy military leader] into the hand of a woman." (verse 9) [/b]
This was a prophecy from God and not of herself. We may think she was talking about herself. However apparently should could have also been speaking of another WOMAN who killed Sisera as he was fleeing. God is not limited to only one woman to get His victory.
Sisera is running scared and seeks refuge in the tent of a woman Jael - "Turn here, my lord; turn here to me; do not be afraid. So he turned to her into her tent, and she covered him with a rug." (v. 18)
After she covered him with a rug and gave him a skin of milk (v.19) she drove a peg through his head and killed him (v.21).
"Then Jael the wife of Heber took a tent peg and put a hammer in her hand and went quietly to him. And she drove the peg into his temple, and it pierced through to the ground; for he was sound asleep and exhausted. And he died.
And Barak was at that moment pursuing Sisera when Jael came out to meet him. And she said to him, Come, and I will show you the man you are seeking. And he went with her; and there was Sisera, fallen dead with the peg in his temple.
So that day God subdued Jabin the king of Canaan before the children of Israel. And the hand of the children of Israel became heavier and heavier upon Jabin the king of Canaan until they destroyed Jabin the king of Canaan." (Judges 4:21-24)
The Bible is economical. And here it takes considerable space to record how God defeated enemies of His people through two women - Deborah the consecrated prophetess and Jael the wife of Heber who had the fortitude to do the job of executing the opposing military leader.
So what does the open reader realize. "Hmmm. Even though God made regulation for helping Israel to realize the male was worth more in matters of military conquest His hands are not tied. If He cannot find any males devoted enough to Him He will not be stopped from performing His will. He will use a consecrated woman or two. "
I'm not finished yet. There is too much in the Bible debunking your charge of divine sexism.
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thought you were the expert on the bible. Try Leviticus 27.
Hold it there. Can you quote me where I said I was an expert ?
I said I like to read it and you should too. I don't think you do.
You implied that because you were forced through Lutheran Sunday School you knew it better than I.
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Originally posted by RJHindsA general comment here not all directed to you.
There is no claim that everything written in the Holy Bible came directly from God and is God approved. Surely, they wrote their own history and they devised there own civil laws and economic and social systems that they believed was in keeping with God's laws.
But the 10 commandments came directly from God. And the Genesis account of creation was inspi ...[text shortened]... lues they place on women, etc. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
The Instructor
It is true that there is a difference in what the Bible teaches and what the Bible records as having been said or done.
I would not argue that in Ancient Near East a patriarchical society is reflected in much of what Israel did.
Sonhouse wants go beyond and try to prove the Bible is not inspired be God because it reflects God's sexism.
I don't agree. In fact taken all things into consideration, as a woman it would in that ancient world I think it would have been better to be an Israelite.
And the New Testament says that in the new man of the Body of Christ there CANNOT be male and female social stratification with oppression -
"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor freeman, there cannot be male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are of Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:27-29)
There CANNOT be, Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
This is not a liberal and magnanimus "There SHOULD not be" as if "You should not behave that way."
There is the revelation that there is no possibility to have the typical social oppression of Greek against Jew, master against slave, or male against female in the normal Christian church llife.
What is practiced in surrounding society of the world CANNOT be the practice within the Christian church life. If you want the church you cannot have make oppressing female or master oppressing slave - "There CANNOT BE ...".
You Christian have to choose which one you want. If you want men oppressing women then you cannot have the normal church in Christ. If you want the normal church in Christ then you cannot have male and female stratification and exploitation. The two matters are mutually exclusive. We cannot have both. If we want a normal prevailing Christian community as a church there cannot be old world stratification and exploitation.
"there cannot be slave nor free, there cannot be male and female for you are all one in Christ".
We as Christians are not called to enter Canaan under the Levitical law. We are called not to the shadow but to the body of the shadow. Christ is all and in all. Christ is every member and fills every corner of the living of the normal Christian church life.
I got carried away a little.
08 May 13
Originally posted by sonship"The marraige of Christ is to His corporate Bride - the church sanctified and presented to Him without spot or wrinkle or any such thing."
The marraige of Christ is to His corporate Bride - the church sanctified and presented to Him without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.
This marraige you can read about in Revelation 19, 21 and 22.
Here He finds His match, His helpmeet, His counterpart.
We are today preparing corporately to marry the Lord Jesus.
Or we should be.
[b]" Let us ...[text shortened]... teous deeds.
By all means Christ is securing for Himself a Bride and a Wife in this sense.
I know you believe that and it will next to impossible to change your mind, but "The Church", "The Body of Christ", is not, "The Bride of Christ".