21 Dec 14
Originally posted by JS357You seriously think when I said the following I was not talking about the
Please help me understand you correctly.
what I see in the universe? That I was only going by scripture? I doubt
anything anyone can say to you would be able to make you see another's
point of view outside of what you want to see in them.
“The window of getting everything from the grand things like gravity correct
down to the all the necessary ingredients under all the proper conditions,
even at a microscopic level is not something I believe you can show you
have limitless opportunities to achieve.”
“It assumes that a hand can be dealt to give us the proper order!
Just looking at the odds and granting that it can be done looks to be beyond
numbers I can think of in my opinion when the whole universe from the
planets and stars all the way down the microscopic levels have to be
just right.
This does not take into account some things may require being placed in
specific orders that would never happen except through design. Which came
first protein or DNA? How did all right handed and left handed requirements
get met and never get broken? A lot of assumptions that all have to favor
your point of view. How fine tuned does all the universe have to be to setup
this little corner?”
21 Dec 14
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayThere are some people on here, like JS357, C Hess, stellspalfie, and sonhouse, who are ignorant on purpose on certain things just like the Apostle Peter warned the early Christians about.
You seriously think when I said the following I was not talking about the
what I see in the universe? That I was only going by scripture? I doubt
anything anyone can say to you would be able to make you see another's
point of view outside of what you want to see in them.
“The window of getting everything from the grand things like gravity correct ...[text shortened]... r point of view. How fine tuned does all the universe have to be to setup
this little corner?”
21 Dec 14
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds"OK by me, I see that your faith is the basis of your belief about origins, not seeing order and design in the world. Thanks for straightening out my perceptions about you."
There are some people on here, like JS357, C Hess, stellspalfie, and sonhouse, who are ignorant on purpose on certain things just like the Apostle Peter warned the early Christians about.
I've spent pages talking about the design of the universe never once did
I bring up scripture and his guys says the above as if that was all I talked
about. I think he could careless what people say and believe, he has his mind
made up and he will not change it no matter what!
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21 Dec 14
Originally posted by KellyJayOK guys, I stand corrected in my understanding of what you are saying.
"OK by me, I see that your faith is the basis of your belief about origins, not seeing order and design in the world. Thanks for straightening out my perceptions about you."
I've spent pages talking about the design of the universe never once did
I bring up scripture and his guys says the above as if that was all I talked
about. I think he could carele ...[text shortened]... what people say and believe, he has his mind
made up and he will not change it no matter what!
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21 Dec 14
Originally posted by KellyJayYou're the one making too many assumptions. You assume that everything must happen in a narrow time-window, with narrow parameters, and in just the right order. We already know of several ways that amino-acids and RNA molecules can form naturally. We have even observed non-organic molecules that becomes self-replicating under the proper conditions. This tells us that there are many potential paths for life to begin. We already know that stars and galaxies can take many different forms. There's no reason to assume that for life to form it has to be in a solar system just like ours, with the same history and constellation of planets. Because of this, there are many possible "winning hands", and it's not really all that spectacular that we sit on such a hand (again, given the number of dealt cards).
That assumes a great deal!
It assumes that a hand can be dealt to give us the proper order!
Just looking at the odds and granting that it can be done looks to be beyond
numbers I can think of in my opinion when the whole universe from the
planets and stars all the way down the microscopic levels have to be
just right.
This does not take into acc ...[text shortened]... our point of view. How fine tuned does all the universe have to be to setup
this little corner?
I heard a talk by Jeremy England a while back, where he presents his mathematical theory that describes how atoms in a heat bath (ocean, atmosphere) when subject to outside energy (sun) inexorably form more complex structures that allows them to dissipate more energy into the heat bath, while limiting their return paths (i.e. once you have a certain order, and unless the conditions change drastically, it's unlikely to reverse back to simpler states, but rather build on what's already there). If he's right, it means that self-replicating molecules and living matter is all but inevitable under those simple conditions (which we can easily imagine to form under many different variations). Here's the talk (a wee bit technical perhaps):
You can read about it here:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/
21 Dec 14
Originally posted by KellyJayHowever, this is the Sprituality Forum and we are allowed to bring up scripture to support our faith. They have nothing other than speculation to support their faith in an undesigned world with undesigned plants and animals.
"OK by me, I see that your faith is the basis of your belief about origins, not seeing order and design in the world. Thanks for straightening out my perceptions about you."
I've spent pages talking about the design of the universe never once did
I bring up scripture and his guys says the above as if that was all I talked
about. I think he could carele ...[text shortened]... what people say and believe, he has his mind
made up and he will not change it no matter what!
They are ignorant on purpose and don't want to know the truth on this subject because they don't want there to be a possibility that the designer of the physical world has the right to judge them for their sins.
21 Dec 14
Originally posted by C HessJust more speculation. That's all.
You're the one making too many assumptions. You assume that everything must happen in a narrow time-window, with narrow parameters, and in just the right order. We already know of several ways that amino-acids and RNA molecules can form naturally. We have even observed non-organic molecules that becomes self-replicating under the proper conditions. This tells ...[text shortened]... can read about it here:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/
21 Dec 14
1 edit
Originally posted by C HessSo you can you tell me how a window of being able to get it right could
You're the one making too many assumptions. You assume that everything must happen in a narrow time-window, with narrow parameters, and in just the right order. We already know of several ways that amino-acids and RNA molecules can form naturally. We have even observed non-organic molecules that becomes self-replicating under the proper conditions. This tells ...[text shortened]... can read about it here:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/
ever happen if none of the things required for it to occur were not all there
at the same time or proper time?
Can you tell me how a window of being able to get it right could ever
happen if some inhibitor is present stopping all the correct chemical
reactions from taking place?
Can you tell me how a window of being able to get it right could ever
happen if all the forces of gravity or other environmental conditions were
not conducive to being able to allow life to start or once started being
able to continue if they fluctuated from viable to nonviable?
These are just some of the basics that require the whole stinking universe
to be setup properly for life from stars and planets down to the microscopic
and you want to just brush all the requirements as if they are no big deal!
I think we can just agree to disagree, because I don't think you want to
even think about how many ducks in a row are required.
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21 Dec 14
Originally posted by KellyJayyou believe that the universe must be designed because it had a beginning.....and you believe it had a beginning because the designer you believe in says it did.
I believe the universe has a beginning and my God doesn't.
do you see the problem here?