11 Jul 05
Originally posted by Tirau DanEveryone should take ownership of good and evil yourself. Do only good. Actively reject evil.
In my humble athiest opinion: the devil is a figment of the imagination conjured as an excuse by weak minded people and those who don't want to understand.
To turn down the existance of gods or devils is not burying one's head in the sand.. it is facing reality.
The classic over-used "The devil made me do it" excuse is just rot.
Everyone should take ownership of good and evil yourself. Do only good. Actively reject evil.
sounds like a solid plan to me.
11 Jul 05
1 edit
Originally posted by flyUnityFirstly to ConrauK who asked. Do you even know what God is? I had Christianity drummed into me from an early age. I have made my decision that their isn't a divine creator ((edit) or a spiritual object to which you must bow down to and thank for everything/anything). My mind is clear of trying to conform with things just because many people I love and respect tell me I should.
Of course you dont believe in the Devil, I dont know of an atheist that does. of course I do I also believe in Demons, and have seen personaly somone who was demon processed. before I always thought that there was no demons. But after tha ...[text shortened]... ave control over themselves, In which I would call demon processed
FlyUnity... It's of coincidence that you say this.. I was part of a navigators breakfast group. One of my friends in the group had been troubled for some time that the devil was preying on his mind and he was terrible upset and troubled. Talking through his troubles which I can't go into here we sourced the cause of each problem. They were genuine problems which he couldn't fathom or normalise on his own. It was nothing to do with the devil at all..he was relieved. May sound simplistic but it's true .
As for demonic possession. If you go to certain churches or ancient cultures you'll see and hear people rolling around the floor, speaking in tongues and maybe even miraculous healing. I guess they'll tell you a person is possessed and you'll most likely believe them.
Demonic possession is a terrible mental illness much rarer than cases than cases of those who believe they are Christ reincarnated. I'm an ex-policemen and dealt with a few of each.. and a school teacher who believed he was a chicken and needed to eat stones off the road. I'm sure a psychiatrist could better explain.
Devils and demons are no more real than fairies at the end of the garden.
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by dale21as your an atheist the bible holds no ground with you
I agree with you, the attitude of people saying that it is the devils fault, its not right that they blame him. I do believe the devil to be real, but then again i believe the bible so i would naturally believe what it says.
as your an atheist the bible holds no ground with you, which is fair enough. can i ask you a question tho. Do you believe in demons?
speaking for myself (a weak atheist), i don't understand why you would automatically draw this conclusion. i think the bible is a good read. i also think it has a lot of useful ideas on how one should live one's life. for example, the whole 'do unto others as you would have others do unto you' thing -- that's a brilliant maxim. 'thou shalt not commit murder' is another good one. i have little doubt that if everyone were to live by these precepts, the world would be a happier place.
i would not say the bible holds no ground with me; i just choose not to believe in the bible's supernatural implications -- like the existence of the christian god, for example. however, whether or not god exists has no bearing on the solid footing of the aforementioned maxims. as something of an aside, the aforementioned maxims (and many others contained in the bible) are rather self-evident which also makes me contemplate the necessity of the bible in any capacity. still, it's a pleasant read.
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by KellyJayMy friend at navigators felt that dark ..sinful or evil thoughts in his head were the work of the devil and he too didn't want to spend much time thinking about it. I thought about it long and hard. I had achat with an Iranian friend who told me that around 1000 -1500 bc in Persia, which covered Iran and Iraq. Zarathustra first talked of the struggle between an evil or dark side struggling against good angels of light. Zoaroastrianism the second oldest world religion, next only to Hiduism.
There are spiritual realities if God and the devil are real that
would not be provable yet give a reason for some actions
and events in single lives, and for those of nations too.
Temptation is one of the devils major goals with the human
race clearly something the devil would still be up too. The
devil made me do it isn’t something you can really blam ...[text shortened]... It is a dark subject and really not one I’d care to spend to
much time worrying about.
Kelly
His belief came from within his conscience from trying to figure right from wrong in his own head... the argument going on his head made him believe it was voices of light and dark.. People through time who are surrounded by religion should know the difference but many don't and refer to what God told them in a dream with abandon.
A sure fire way to hear voice in your head is to eat onions and cucumber before you go to bed!! It's true you'll lay awake for hours in the small hours wrestling with very realistic arguments... Get up and take some bicarb!
Cheers
Dan
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11 Jul 05
Originally posted by Tirau DanYou acknowledge you have a mind. But do not believe in God. I still don't think you know what God is.
[b]Firstly to ConrauK who asked. Do you even know what God is? I had Christianity drummed into me from an early age. I have made my decision that their isn't a divine creator ((edit) or a spiritual object to which you must bow down to and thank for everything/anything).
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by Tirau DanI use to work at a VA hospital that dealt with servicemen that had
My friend at navigators felt that dark ..sinful or evil thoughts in his head were the work of the devil and he too didn't want to spend much time thinking about it. I thought about it long and hard. I had achat with an Iranian friend who told me that around 1000 -1500 bc in Persia, which covered Iran and Iraq. Zarathustra first talked of the struggle be ...[text shortened]... l hours wrestling with very realistic arguments... Get up and take some bicarb!
Cheers
Dan
issues. The very first day we were there a doctor was speaking to
the group of us during our orientation.. She said that we were
going to be working around all kinds of patients, some with
health issues some worse than others, some with mental issues,
drug and alcohol issues as well. When it came to those patients
that heard voices we were told, don’t belittle or attempt to
correct them, there is no way to know if they are or are not really
hearing voices.
I have to agree with you about people looking to blame the devil
for many of their ills, people tend to do that, pass along the blame
for things they need to take care of themselves. I suppose it makes
their lives more tolerable if they think it isn’t their fault they don’t
pay the bills when they have the money to do so. It may be easier
to blame the devil for spending it on porn, drugs, or whatever.
Having said that, that does not mean at all that there isn't a spiritual
reality that is hidden from the natural/material world yet does have
influence either.
Kelly
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by KellyJayYa know Kelly, Satan , demons even Angels are holdovers from polytheism, whereas the Trinity is not. Can't Satan just be a metaphor for human nature's baser instincts?
I use to work at a VA hospital that dealt with servicemen that had
issues. The very first day we were there a doctor was speaking to
the group of us during our orientation.. She said that we were
going to be working around all kinds of patients, some with
health issues some worse than others, some with mental issues,
drug and alcohol issues as well. Wh ...[text shortened]... reality that is hidden from the natural/material world yet does have
influence either.
Kelly
Which does allow for Man to have free will, as well as allowing the possibility that Man and not God created evil.
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by Tirau DanNo, TDan, I don't. What I meant was expressed by frogstomp a couple of posts above.
? You mean you believe a diety made us and the universe? I don't. Just because we don't know the origin or extent of something doesn't mean a diety made it, though I guess people around 3000yrs ago thought that way.
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by David CSorry for my mistake. Yes I can see what you mean but would take it further to apply that thought and say that God/s is/ are a metaphor of all the good things that we praised over 3000 years ago.
No, TDan, I don't. What I meant was expressed by frogstomp a couple of posts above.
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by Tirau DanYou don't need to take it quite that far.It's not entirely beyond the realm of possibility that God exists, To say different is based on what Man thought or thinks God is.
Sorry for my mistake. Yes I can see what you mean but would take it further to apply that thought and say that God/s is/ are a metaphor of all the good things that we praised over 3000 years ago.
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by Conrau KDo you have any idea how obnoxious and arrogant you sound?! Who are you to go around playing judge and jury on people's beliefs?!
You acknowledge you have a mind. But do not believe in God. I still don't think you know what God is.
You're criticising peoples understanding of God on what basis? The basis that YOU understand God and that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is wrong? That's the way it's coming across to people reading this thread you know!
11 Jul 05
Originally posted by Tirau DanI've never heard of any Biblical support for the "devil made me do it" excuse. If anything, one could say that opposite, God made me do it. Either was, you are held responsible for you actions so neither plead will excuse you deeds.
In my humble athiest opinion: the devil is a figment of the imagination conjured as an excuse by weak minded people and those who don't want to understand.
To turn down the existance of gods or devils is not burying one's head in the sand.. it is facing reality.
The classic over-used "The devil made me do it" excuse is just rot.
Everyone should take ownership of good and evil yourself. Do only good. Actively reject evil.
As far as denying the existence of God and Satan - to do so can only be done so on faith. There is plenty of evidence for both, but no one can prove or disprove the existence if the supernatural. Recognizing that any position one take on the issue is essential a matter of faith is the most honest thing you can do.
I agree, everyone should take ownership of the good and evil they do if by that you mean assume responsibility.