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The nuances of translating the Greek New Testament.
The following is from this source https://concordiatheology.org/2021/11/five-things-new-testament-translations-dont-want-you-to-know/
1. The Devil Has a Father? (Jn 8:44)
In John 8:44, Jesus says of the devil, ὅταν λαλῇ τὸ ψεῦδος, ἐκ τῶν ἰδίων λαλεῖ, ὅτι ψεύστης ἐστὶν καὶ ὁπατὴρ αὐτοῦ. The ESV renders this, “When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” This translation assumes that αὐτοῦ is neuter and its antecedent is τὸ ψεῦδος earlier in the verse: “he is a liar and the father of it (i.e., the lie).” But αὐτοῦ could also be masculine, in which case its antecedent would be the subject of the sentence, the devil: “he is a liar and so is his father.” In fact, I would argue that if you didn’t already know that the devil doesn’t have a father, this would be the most natural way to construe the verse.
But wait, that doesn’t make any sense. We do know that the devil doesn’t have a father. So surely the English translations are right, and we really don’t need to consider this absurd possibility. No one would seriously take the verse this way.
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Personally, I would differ with the author, David Maxwell, and I would seriously consider the verse that indeed states the Devil is a liar, and so is his father. The Devil has a Father. After all, God, the Father, did create the Serpent of Old. And we are also told that God, the Father, sends out strong delusions so that we will believe the lie.
Does the Devil have a Father? Do we have any Greek language/ Biblical scholars here who can shed some light on Lucifer's Daddy?
This thread is indirectly related to the thread questioning Jesus' ability to speak Greek. The NT was originally written in Greek.
How was the Greek translation obtained? Was John 8:44 a literal translation of Jesus' direct words? These words spoken by Jesus on the Devil were in Greek? Were they in Aramaic? Were they in Hebrew? Adding another twist to the words, regardless of which language, is that all three also have various dialects.
Which language and which dialect was spoken by Jesus, regarding John 8:44? It does make a hell of a difference, when it comes to the Devil, and his father.
238d
@pettytalk saidNo, I am not contributing to this.
The nuances of translating the Greek New Testament.
The following is from this source https://concordiatheology.org/2021/11/five-things-new-testament-translations-dont-want-you-to-know/
1. The Devil Has a Father? (Jn 8:44)
In John 8:44, Jesus says of the devil, ὅταν λαλῇ τὸ ψεῦδος, ἐκ τῶν ἰδίων λαλεῖ, ὅτι ψεύστης ἐστὶν καὶ ὁπατὴρ αὐτοῦ. The ESV renders this, “Whe ...[text shortened]... egarding John 8:44? It does make a hell of a difference, when it comes to the Devil, and his father.
It is all specious speculation.
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@suzianne saidDo you know what they say? "You are hanging yourself on someone else's words, dying to believe what in what you have heard."
No, I am not contributing to this.
It is all specious speculation.
Someone else also said:
"Further, looked at from a historical point of view, there have been so many different Greek translations with different dialects and accents, some of them gaining more authority than others over time, that it becomes nearly impossible to critically assess them. One Greek translation becomes the basis for another Greek translation becomes the basis for yet another one such that, inevitably, what we are dealing with is assessing copies of copies of copies, not original manuscript text."
When it comes to the Word of God, there is so much room for speculation that it leaves a Grand Canyon-sized gap between hearsay and truth. The Word needs to come back to life, and speak for itself.
I can understand why you would shy away from this. I would not be the one here to twist your arm to force you to voice your opinion on whether or not the Devil has a father, and who would be the one to serve with the paternity suit.
The Bible, in the Book of Job, describes Satan as one of the "sons of God" who came to present themselves before the Lord, indicating that he is considered part of the divine hierarchy in the heavenly court.
Truly truly I say: Like father, like son. And we all have a father, whether we know him or not.
Just look at it this other way, as I'm using someone on whom you have a speculative, specious opinion.
Mary Trump, Donald Trump's niece, describes Fred Trump as a cold and forbidding patriarch who drove his eldest son, Fred Jr., to alcoholism and an early death. She also blames Fred Trump Sr. for giving Donald his bad habits, including lying and self-deception.
238d
@suzianne saidIt’s an “unexplained mystery”
No, I am not contributing to this.
It is all specious speculation.
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@suzianne saidTherefore you disagree with Mr. Maxwell, as I do. The Devil does have a Father, and perhaps the correct interpretation of the Greek for John 8:44 is indeed that the Father is also a liar. But since Jesus also said that God is Good, He's a Good liar. And a good liar is one who makes others believe the lies, otherwise he would not be a good liar.
The Father of us all is God. This includes the angels, many of whom rebelled and departed with Satan. Speculating on the reasons why is foolhardy.
I have no "need to know."
As they say, it is what it is.
Could be that a few Jews got wise to Jesus, when, as stated in Matthew 12:24, the Pharisees said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons. To which Jesus' sophistic reply was, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand."
Obviously, Jesus was telling, and not telling, the truth. The truth that every Kingdom divided against itself will not stand. And is not the house of Christendom divided against itself? And Jesus was telling a fib on whose authority he performs it, since we have Isaiah 45:7, which states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."
We all have a need to know. To know good and evil; to know the truth about them, which will set you free.
237d
@pettytalk saidQuite the twist.
The nuances of translating the Greek New Testament.
The following is from this source https://concordiatheology.org/2021/11/five-things-new-testament-translations-dont-want-you-to-know/
1. The Devil Has a Father? (Jn 8:44)
In John 8:44, Jesus says of the devil, ὅταν λαλῇ τὸ ψεῦδος, ἐκ τῶν ἰδίων λαλεῖ, ὅτι ψεύστης ἐστὶν καὶ ὁπατὴρ αὐτοῦ. The ESV renders this, “Whe ...[text shortened]... egarding John 8:44? It does make a hell of a difference, when it comes to the Devil, and his father.
Satan has a creator. Everything does. God is not Satan's father simply because he wasn't created in God's image and likeness, man was. God is the father of the human race.
Satan is merely the father of the lie. To render the interpretation as meaning more or less than what it says is only very poor exegesis, as there are no other textual references that gives support to what is just another attempt of starting with a presumptive idea and cherry picking a verse and garbling up its plain meaning to make it say something else.
All your cutting and pasting notwithstanding.
After all it's what Satan does. He adds to and takes away from the Word of God.
237d
@pettytalk said"...The Devil does have a Father, and perhaps the correct interpretation of the Greek for John 8:44 is indeed that the Father is also a liar. But since Jesus also said that God is Good, He's a Good liar. And a good liar is one who makes others believe the lies, otherwise he would not be a good liar."
Therefore you disagree with Mr. Maxwell, as I do. The Devil does have a Father, and perhaps the correct interpretation of the Greek for John 8:44 is indeed that the Father is also a liar. But since Jesus also said that God is Good, He's a Good liar. And a good liar is one who makes others believe the lies, otherwise he would not be a good liar.
Could be that a few Jews g ...[text shortened]... l have a need to know. To know good and evil; to know the truth about them, which will set you free.
Brazen lie if I ever heard one.
The scripture teaches "..God, that cannot lie,.."; therefore the contradiction you assert is a lie, told by a liar and believed by fools.
@josephw saidAsk PettyTalk if he is a Christian, or if he isn’t.
"...The Devil does have a Father, and perhaps the correct interpretation of the Greek for John 8:44 is indeed that the Father is also a liar. But since Jesus also said that God is Good, He's a Good liar. And a good liar is one who makes others believe the lies, otherwise he would not be a good liar."
Brazen lie if I ever heard one.
The scripture teaches "..God, t ...[text shortened]... nnot lie,.."; therefore the contradiction you assert is a lie, told by a liar and believed by fools.
Good luck.
237d
@pettytalk saidWith this kind of logic, you could prove that water is not wet.
Therefore you disagree with Mr. Maxwell, as I do. The Devil does have a Father, and perhaps the correct interpretation of the Greek for John 8:44 is indeed that the Father is also a liar. But since Jesus also said that God is Good, He's a Good liar. And a good liar is one who makes others believe the lies, otherwise he would not be a good liar.
Could be that a few Jews g ...[text shortened]... l have a need to know. To know good and evil; to know the truth about them, which will set you free.
Once you have a given (or a derived given) that is false, everything that follows after is false. This is the problem with believing that falsity is truth. Ego is the enemy of logic.
237d
@pettytalk saidYou can know this that the scriptures teach Adam and Eve fell in paradise, Satan fell in heaven and there was war in heaven, and death entered the human race.
Therefore you disagree with Mr. Maxwell, as I do. The Devil does have a Father, and perhaps the correct interpretation of the Greek for John 8:44 is indeed that the Father is also a liar. But since Jesus also said that God is Good, He's a Good liar. And a good liar is one who makes others believe the lies, otherwise he would not be a good liar.
Could be that a few Jews g ...[text shortened]... l have a need to know. To know good and evil; to know the truth about them, which will set you free.
Satan broke truth and lied to Adam and Eve they wanted the lie to be true and acted on it.
When Satan speaks because there is no truth in him all that comes out are lies. Without the Spirit of God in us there is no pleasing God, all the truth we speak is ours not His. God is truth so to be contrary to Him is also contrary to truth.
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@suzianne saidEver hear the expression, cold as ice? That's what you are, a foreigner to the evident truth. BY the way, if water is cold enough, it's not wet. The term "wet" refers to a state of being damp or moist, which is characteristic of water in its liquid form. Ice, on the other hand, is a solid state of water and thus does not possess the moisture or dampness associated with the liquid state. This distinction is fundamental in understanding the properties and behaviors of water under different conditions.
With this kind of logic, you could prove that water is not wet.
Once you have a given (or a derived given) that is false, everything that follows after is false. This is the problem with believing that falsity is truth. Ego is the enemy of logic.
It is also fundamental to understand how to determine, and then fish out the lies God has been telling the physical world ever since He created it, which is strictly for entertainment, if you can see the truth in the lies.
And talk about ego... Jesus was very egotistical. Anyone who claims that he alone can save the world has the biggest ego of all. Well, perhaps Trump would give Jesus a run for his money, when it comes to ego, and being the best at everything.
If you are a Christian, you would become a Trumper, because Trump is the one that will bring Jesus back down, and get the ball rolling on getting a new earth and new heaven. Like erecting a new and more attractive Casino in Las Vegas, as the old one has to be totally demolished to build the new one at the same location, if it's to be labeled as something new of the old one.
Is it logical to assign God the attributes of Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, and everything else Omni, and then believe God's lie that He really created an enemy for Himself? Seriously? The Devil is really God's right hand man, a son and partner in "crime", and in all the lies. And it's only for fun and games, does He make simpleminded people believe that lie of an enemy, because it's just part of the Big game of illusion.
Would I lie to you? Only for fun and games!
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@pettytalk saidAre you a Christian PettyTalk?
Ever hear the expression, cold as ice? That's what you are, a foreigner to the evident truth. BY the way, if water is cold enough, it's not wet. The term "wet" refers to a state of being damp or moist, which is characteristic of water in its liquid form. Ice, on the other hand, is a solid state of water and thus does not possess the moisture or dampness associated with the ...[text shortened]... sion.
Would I lie to you? Only for fun and games!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BcId4_4vO4
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@kellyjay saidYou are all wet behind the ears! I'm throwing in the towel and a song, for friendship's sake.
You can know this that the scriptures teach Adam and Eve fell in paradise, Satan fell in heaven and there was war in heaven, and death entered the human race.
Satan broke truth and lied to Adam and Eve they wanted the lie to be true and acted on it.
When Satan speaks because there is no truth in him all that comes out are lies. Without the Spirit of God in us there ...[text shortened]... he truth we speak is ours not His. God is truth so to be contrary to Him is also contrary to truth.