The Elect

Originally posted by RJHinds
He is just because He chooses those who WILL believe. Christians evangelize
to give those who WILL believe the oportunity to demonstrate their faith by
being baptized publicly into the Body of Christ. God is the Creator and has
the right and authority to make any decison He choses, but He choses to
make just decisions. HalleluYah !!!

But this totally contradicts all the preachers who tell us that we must choose to believe in order to go to heaven and that the reward for belief is going to heaven etc. In reality it seems God has some secret criteria for choosing who does and who doesn't believe (and hence gets to heaven).
You choose also to believe that his decisions are just, yet this too is a matter of faith. His decisions are not obviously just, and in fact, usually appear to be very unjust.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But this totally contradicts all the preachers who tell us that we must choose to believe in order to go to heaven and that the reward for belief is going to heaven etc. In reality it seems God has some secret criteria for choosing who does and who doesn't believe (and hence gets to heaven).
You choose also to believe that his decisions are just, yet thi ...[text shortened]... of faith. His decisions are not obviously just, and in fact, usually appear to be very unjust.

No, you are given free will to believe or not to believe. The way I
understand it is that God knows your heart and therefore can predict
who WILL believe, but it is still your choice. So the elect or chosen
are those that believe that Christ is Lord. Simple as that. Don't try
to make it more complicated for yourself by trying to analyze each
detail to infinity.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Simple as that. Don't try to make it more complicated for yourself by trying to analyze each
detail to infinity.

Actually it seems it is you and sumydid that are making it more complicated. You cant seem to make up your mind as to whether I get to decide whether to believe, or whether it is Gods choice. In fact, I think sumydid clearly says it is all up to God, and you changed your mind during the thread (after getting caught out).

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually it seems it is you and sumydid that are making it more complicated. You cant seem to make up your mind as to whether I get to decide whether to believe, or whether it is Gods choice. In fact, I think sumydid clearly says it is all up to God, and you changed your mind during the thread (after getting caught out).

God chooses the elect based upon his foreknowledge of what you Will choose.
God is not going to force you to believe or not to believe as you seem to be
thinking. That is not fair and just, is it?

Originally posted by RJHinds
God chooses the elect based upon his foreknowledge of what you Will choose.
God is not going to force you to believe or not to believe as you seem to be
thinking. That is not fair and just, is it?

If god can see the future then neither he, nor us, can have free will.

Free will is only a meaningful concept if the future is unwritten, so our (and god's) choices
can change it.

If the future is written and thus can be foreseen then we are locked into our choices before
we are even born and thus don't have free will.

You can't have free will and god being able to see the future at the same time.

Pick which you want to ditch from your religion.


And no, expecting people to believe in you with no evidence at all on pain of eternal torture is
not fair or just.
And expecting people to worship you on pain of eternal torture is not fair or just.
Your imaginary overlord is an egomaniac.

Originally posted by RJHinds
God chooses the elect based upon his foreknowledge of what you Will choose.

So you clearly disagree with summydid.

God is not going to force you to believe or not to believe as you seem to be
thinking. That is not fair and just, is it?
How can one know what is fair and just? Whenever I say something is not fair and just some Christian tells me that I do not have the whole picture and am therefore not in a position to judge.

Originally posted by googlefudge
If god can see the future then neither he, nor us, can have free will.

Free will is only a meaningful concept if the future is unwritten, so our (and god's) choices
can change it.

If the future is written and thus can be foreseen then we are locked into our choices before
we are even born and thus don't have free will.

You can't have free wi ...[text shortened]... you on pain of eternal torture is not fair or just.
Your imaginary overlord is an egomaniac.

The future is not written in advance by God. It is our actions that will
determine how history will be played out. But God is so intelligent that
He can predict the end from the beginning. This does not mean you do
not have free will. Of course, you do because you could not learn to
love God otherwise. That is the main reason God made us. He wants
to love us and have us love Him in return. If He did not give us free
will, real love would be impossible for us. Forced love is not love at all.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you clearly disagree with summydid.

[b]God is not going to force you to believe or not to believe as you seem to be
thinking. That is not fair and just, is it?
How can one know what is fair and just? Whenever I say something is not fair and just some Christian tells me that I do not have the whole picture and am therefore not in a position to judge.[/b]

Okay, judge what you believe you can safely and accurately judge and
leave the rest of the judging to God.

Originally posted by sumydid
Then you disagree with St. Augustine.

He (rightfully in my mind) concluded that faith simply isn't possible without the grace of God.

You can take it from there and it penetrates deep (no this isn't that other thread), because the clear implication is, faith is not achieved by our action, but by God's action. Like the bible says, no one can approach God until such time as God draws them to Him.

Do you think that there are any who claim to be the elect, who are also guilty of any of these things listed in Pauls letter to the Ephesians:

Eph 5:1-5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Originally posted by googlefudge
If god can see the future then neither he, nor us, can have free will.

Free will is only a meaningful concept if the future is unwritten, so our (and god's) choices
can change it.

If the future is written and thus can be foreseen then we are locked into our choices before
we are even born and thus don't have free will.

You can't have free wi ...[text shortened]... you on pain of eternal torture is not fair or just.
Your imaginary overlord is an egomaniac.

It turns out that justifying these claims is really, really difficult. There was a fantastic conversation here on just this topic. Complete with proofs!

http://www.chessatwork.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=133337&page=1

Originally posted by divegeester
Creating exclusivity is easy...

Joining a man made organisation in order to be part of that "elect"?
Subscribing without question (to authority) to that organisations beliefs, doctrines, rules and ordinances?
Sufficiently corrupt the doctrinal pillars of a particular religion to ensure new organisation is"stand alone"
Limiting the number of the ele ...[text shortened]... of the organisation?

There really is lots you can do when you put your mind to it.

Hummmm..

I did not JOIN any organization to get saved as I'm not.

Man made? Who are you to question if God is not behind the forming of this organization?

I've questioned and checked with the Bible from my first time I wanted proof of what the JW's believe from the Bible. As to this date I can't find any fault.

God said in YOUR bible he would have a people for his NAME. No other religion uses his name of Jehovah. Look it up sometime.

It's not our fault you don't get the meaning of the 144,000 in YOUR bible. We clearly understand it. Sounds like jealousy to me that you don't.

The Bible is clear in what it says if one leaves his protection. Look it up sometime.

Any dummy can see we're not in this to make money. I haven't made a dime as no one else does either. The money we do make goes into paying bills at the Kingdom Halls, assembly halls, printing of liturature etc, etc.

No one is making prophectic statements to impress anyone. How stupid of a statement to make......

YOUR bible says to abstain from blood. Sorry you don't understand the word "abstain". Look it up sometime.

We are not to marry outside because of it letting satan into ones life. YOUR bible condemns that. Look it up sometime.

The sad point in your statement your not addressing any of the points needed to be qualified to be of the elect or chosen ones. You must not understand the question?

Originally posted by galveston75
... No one is making prophectic statements to impress anyone. ......
....

What is the reason why the WT Org makes hundreds of prophetic statements which time proves wrong. And it continues. The only reason is to try to impress their followers.

Originally posted by Rajk999
What is the reason why the WT Org makes hundreds of prophetic statements which time proves wrong. And it continues. The only reason is to try to impress their followers.

Yawn.......

Originally posted by twhitehead
Which argument raises two questions:
1. Is that a just God, who only accepts into heaven those that believe, but personally chooses those that believe based on some unknown criteria?
2. Why do Christians bother trying to evangelise, when faith has nothing to do with there actions (or those being preached to) but is purely a decision by God.

2 very, very fine questions -- the answers to which are still being debated today within the Church.

I'm afraid my answer is not going to be very satisfying but based on the Scriptures,

1. God is sovereign and as a sovereign Creator He should be able to do as He chooses with His creation. I think this leads to perhaps an even more penetrating question: If God is just in creating something just for the sake of using it to glorify Himself and be destroyed later... would it be better for that thing that it not ever have been created in the first place?

Anyway, in both the Old and New Testaments, it is repeated that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy. Obviously the implication here is, God will hold back mercy on certain individuals. His choice. His creation. His sandbox.

*edit* you asked if it is just. The mercy God gives to those whom He gives it, is a special gift. The bible says that we all... ALL... justly deserve destruction because of our sins against God. Therefore destruction is just, and merciful grace is a special gift that is more than just. God would be just in showing us zero mercy. The fact that He shows mercy on just one person, let alone millions of people, demonstrates that He is better than just.

2. I have asked this question to others, to God, and to myself many times. The only answer I can give is (a) we evangelize because we are driven to do so... my normal example is, if you found the cure for cancer, could you keep it to yourself?, and (b) we evangelize because we are commanded to by Christ and being Christians, we desire to be obedient to the LORD.

I don't expect you to like those answers. But I did give an honest effort.

Originally posted by sumydid
[b]2 very, very fine questions -- the answers to which are still being debated today within the Church.

I'm afraid my answer is not going to be very satisfying but based on the Scriptures,

1. God is sovereign and as a sovereign Creator He should be able to do as He chooses with His creation.

unless his creation has no will, this supposition is completely immoral. once a creation is given a free will, the creator no longer has any moral basis to do as he chooses with the creation. he may still guide and direct, he may still teach and reason, but their destiny is no longer in his hands.

I think this leads to perhaps an even more penetrating question: If God is just in creating something just for the sake of using it to glorify Himself and be destroyed later... would it be better for that thing that it not ever have been created in the first place?

creating something for self glorification (as in the abrahamic/christian/muslim god) and punishing those that don't play along are symptoms of narcissism. it would be disastrous for sentient beings to be created by such a mad god.

Anyway, in both the Old and New Testaments, it is repeated that God will have mercy on whom He has mercy. Obviously the implication here is, God will hold back mercy on certain individuals. His choice. His creation. His sandbox.

his madness.