05 Sep 19
@fmf saidIt seems that the Centurion, for what reason we're not certain, had a great amount of confidence in the healing power of Jesus, which implies he didn't just go to Jesus on a mere 'roll of the dice' whim.
Why did people flock to the seventh child of the seventh child in Ireland in the 1970s?
I'm sure the Centurion could have sought out other means of healing, like the one your story has, but he didn't.
05 Sep 19
@rajk999 saidIt is certainly an interesting incident. I don't view it as being about the servant or a case of miraculous healing. The servant is incidental to the real message here. The real message, as I see it, is Jesus' interaction with the centurion, a gentile, and specifically one whom many in Judea would have considered an enemy of Israel. Far from treating the centurion as an enemy, Jesus treats him with compassion.
Nice post .. quite a few good points in there which Christians in general will not agree with.
This may be compared with the story of Jesus instructing his countrymen to "go an extra mile". This makes sense only if one knows the historical context of the Roman occupation. Roman soldiers often marched carrying battle armor, which was heavy. The law (Roman provincial law, of course) specified that if a Roman soldier encountered a local on his march, he could compel the local to carry his armor for him for one mile. This law was, of course, odious to local populations. Now consider how strange it must have sounded to the Jews at that time for Jesus to enjoin his countrymen to "go an extra mile." And to do it gladly! To offer to do such a thing, for an 'enemy' of Israel, as if one were doing it for God, with love.
'Love thine enemy.'
I see these two Biblical stories together, in that context.
@chaney3 saidThere could be many explanations why the centurion went to Jesus.
Then why go to Jesus?
Why not ask his pagan god for help?
Maybe there were no other faith-healers in town that day.
Maybe the centurion appealed to his own gods and also to Jesus, to cover all the bases and increase the servant's chances that one or another of them would work.
Maybe the servant was a follower of Jesus; so the centurion appealed to his servant's man-god rather than to his (the centurion's) gods.
EDIT: what you cannot assume is that a pagan would have thought there was anything special about the Jews' god. For pagans, the god of the Jews was just one more member of a very complex pantheon.
If the message of this passage were to document Jesus' healing powers and to establish that they were of such a nature and magnitude that they could only have been divine, then one would expect that the lead-up to "and the servant was healed" would have consisted of: a) a detailed description of the servant's symptoms, b) the assertion that everyone else who ever had these symptoms had died, and c) that all other appeals to pagan gods to heal this particular ailment had failed.
But what do we read instead in the lead-up? Nothing whatever about the servant. What we read is a detailed account of the centurion, his rank, his power and influence: when he commands, people jump. Yet he humbles himself to ask a favor of a man of lower social status than himself, for a man of lower social status than himself, and Jesus responds to him; that is what this parable is about. The healing is incidental.
05 Sep 19
@chaney3 saidThe people who flocked to the seventh child of the seventh child in Ireland in the 1970s did it with a great amount of confidence in the boy's healing power too. Maybe now, 40 years later, I should write an account of how he actually did heal people and my account of it can be the evidence that he did.
It seems that the Centurion, for what reason we're not certain, had a great amount of confidence in the healing power of Jesus, which implies he didn't just go to Jesus on a mere 'roll of the dice' whim.
05 Sep 19
@moonbus saidThe fact that the Centurion made comment of not being worthy enough to have Jesus enter his home speaks volumes about how he viewed Jesus. In this case, it doesn't appear that the Centurion looked upon Jesus as being in a "lower social status". Quite the opposite.
There could be many explanations why the centurion went to Jesus.
Maybe there were no other faith-healers in town that day.
Maybe the centurion appealed to his own gods and also to Jesus, to cover all the bases and increase the servant's chances that one or another of them would work.
Maybe the servant was a follower of Jesus; so the centurion appealed to his servant ...[text shortened]... lf, and Jesus responds to him; that is what this parable is about. The healing is incidental.
06 Sep 19
@chaney3 saidJesus was a carpenter, a common labourer; the centurion was a solder and commander, therefore of a higher social status. He humbled himself before Jesus because he took Jesus to be a (reputed) wonder-worker and therefore of a higher spiritual status.
The fact that the Centurion made comment of not being worthy enough to have Jesus enter his home speaks volumes about how he viewed Jesus. In this case, it doesn't appear that the Centurion looked upon Jesus as being in a "lower social status". Quite the opposite.
06 Sep 19
@all_christians_here
The take-home message of the parable is: show kindness and compassion to everyone. Without prejudice against your enemies, against people not of your faith-community, not of your ethnicity, not of your social status, who may not share your moral precepts about marriage, sexuality and gender identity. There is no indication that the centurion was saved or went to heaven or that Jesus expected him to worship the God of the Jews; yet Jesus showed him respect, kindness, compassion, and fulfilled his request.
In stark contrast to the woman in Booneville Mississippi who recently refused to provide a service to people on grounds of what she called "faith" but she really meant "prejudice." The case was reported in the news media, the woman was roundly rebuked in social media. In the meantime, her local pastor appears to have set her straight about the teachings of Jesus.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49571207
There are some here at the SF, too, who would do well to meditate on the message of the parable under discussion here, that Jesus granted a request to a pagan, a man who was not a follower of Jesus, and who many in Judea at that time would have considered an enemy of the Jews.
06 Sep 19
@moonbus saidWhat is interesting to me is how you write this stuff as though “all-Christians-here” just arrived with the last forum rain-shower.
@all_christians_here
The take-home message of the parable is: show kindness and compassion to everyone. Without prejudice against your enemies, against people not of your faith-community, not of your ethnicity, not of your social status, who may not share your moral precepts about marriage, sexuality and gender identity. There is no indication that the centurion was save ...[text shortened]... a follower of Jesus, and who many in Judea at that time would have considered an enemy of the Jews.
06 Sep 19
@moonbus saidI fully agree.
@all_christians_here
The take-home message of the parable is: show kindness and compassion to everyone. Without prejudice against your enemies, against people not of your faith-community, not of your ethnicity, not of your social status, who may not share your moral precepts about marriage, sexuality and gender identity. There is no indication that the centurion was save ...[text shortened]... a follower of Jesus, and who many in Judea at that time would have considered an enemy of the Jews.
Well said.
@divegeester saidNot a few of the so-called Christians here are adamantly and vociferously opposed to all sorts of things, such as equal rights for non-heterosexuals and respect for non-Christians, for which there is no basis in the teachings of Jesus.
What is interesting to me is how you write this stuff as though “all-Christians-here” just arrived with the last forum rain-shower.
06 Sep 19
@moonbus saidAccording to many Christians, this centurion will be tormented in hell for all eternity, because
Not a few of the so-called Christians here are adamantly and vociferously opposed to all sorts of things, such as equal rights for non-heterosexuals and respect for non-Christians, for which there is no basis in the teachings of Jesus.
- he did not profess faith in the death and resurrection of Christ
- he did not have a personal relationship with Christ
- he was not saved by Grace
- he was not born again
- he could not possibly be sanctified and glorified.
- he trusted in his own works and not in Christ.
Eternal torment awaits this man.
@rajk999 saidAccording to many Christians, this centurion will be tormented in hell for all eternity, because...
According to many Christians, this centurion will be tormented in hell for all eternity, because
- he did not profess faith in the death and resurrection of Christ
- he did not have a personal relationship with Christ
- he was not saved by Grace
- he was not born again
- he could not possibly be sanctified and glorified.
- he trusted in his own works and not in Christ.
Eternal torment awaits this man.
Because he had no way of knowing the difference between human beings and maggots?
06 Sep 19
@moonbus saidBut you directed your ‘I’m educating you’ post to “all-Christians here”.
Not a few of the so-called Christians here are adamantly and vociferously opposed to all sorts of things, such as equal rights for non-heterosexuals and respect for non-Christians, for which there is no basis in the teachings of Jesus.
06 Sep 19
@divegeester said"Respect, kindness, compassion, etc."
But you directed your ‘I’m educating you’ post to “all-Christians here”.
You rarely display these qualities dive, not sure why you are acting defensive here.
Moonbus was definitely talking about you.......and me.
You have admitted to being a terrible Christian, one who won't change.