- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
If you abandoned a bucket of KFC chicken halfway through without explanation, one would be justified in querying if something was wrong with the chicken.
Okay, let's run with that.
Communism did its best to virtually wipe out by political suppression the Christian faith during China's Cultural Revolution under Mao. The fact that millions of true believers went underground and could not be eradicated yet thrive to this day in the millions in China, owes much to the writings and ministry of Watchman Nee. The quality of Christian commitment that his words secured proved nearly an indestructible subculture in Mainland China.
I would say there must have been something right with the bucket of chicken.
- Joined
- 14 Mar 15
- Moves
- 29595
@sonship saidFirstly sir, you shouldn't run with a bucket of chicken.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
If you abandoned a bucket of KFC chicken halfway through without explanation, one would be justified in querying if something was wrong with the chicken.
Okay, let's run with that.
Communism did its best to virtually wipe out by political suppression the Christian faith during China's Cultural Revolution under Mao. The fact that mi ...[text shortened]... land China.
I would say there must have been something right with the bucket of chicken.
Secondly, if the chicken was good, why did you stop eating it?
@sonship saidReligion is only one of the many things Communism tried to wipe out. It failed at all. Why do you think WL and his writings helped?
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
If you abandoned a bucket of KFC chicken halfway through without explanation, one would be justified in querying if something was wrong with the chicken.
Okay, let's run with that.
Communism did its best to virtually wipe out by political suppression the Christian faith during China's Cultural Revolution under Mao. The fact that mi ...[text shortened]... land China.
I would say there must have been something right with the bucket of chicken.
@whodey saidI think you've got the wrong end of the stick. What do you think of its content? Why do you think it's not in the Bible? If you believe it's a fake or that it's got nothing to do with Jesus, or it's wrong about him, then I will settle for that. This thread was triggered by a post by moonbus. I'll dig it out.
My bad, so scholars think it was written around 70AD.
So I would assume that you believe that Mark is older than the book of Thomas, yet you believe Thomas was written by the disciple but no disciple was responsible for Mark?
Why?
@whodey saidThis thread was triggered by a post by moonbus. I'll dig it out.
My bad, so scholars think it was written around 70AD.
So I would assume that you believe that Mark is older than the book of Thomas, yet you believe Thomas was written by the disciple but no disciple was responsible for Mark?
Why?
moonbus: "Personally, I find the gospel of Thomas most edifying (reprinted with trans. and commentary in the Nag Hamadi Library). It begins 'those who understand the meaning of Jesus's teaching have already attained the Kingdom of God.' Get it? Understanding the teaching is all you need; there is no supernaturalism, no virgin birth, no resurrection, no miracles, no life after death, no lake of fire waiting for unbelievers. Just understand the teaching ('love God and love thy neighbour as thyself' ), and you have attained the blessed state, here, now. No mystery why the bishops suppressed that gospel: it would have rendered the authority of the church at Rome null and void. What a happy piece of luck that some traces of early alternative Christianities survived."
@fmf saidOne of my personal favourite verses is No 2:
This thread was triggered by a post by moonbus. I'll dig it out.
moonbus: "Personally, I find the gospel of Thomas most edifying It begins 'those who understand the meaning of Jesus's teaching have already attained the Kingdom of God.'
(2) Jesus said: He who seeks, let him not cease seeking until he finds; and when he finds he will be troubled, and if he is troubled, he will be amazed, and he will reign over the All.
This is quite similar to the portion in the gospels which says: "Seek, and you shall find, ask and it will be given to you, knock and the door will be openend".
This passage is normally explained as pointing to the merits of perseverance.
However, in the GoT it means something completely different - and here is my take on it, no commentaries or expositions.
When we honestly seek the truth (the meaning of life, the universe and everything) we usually have a sneeking suspicion that we already know what it is, but merely want confirmation.
However, this verse says that when you really find what you are seeking, you will be troubled, because it wasn't what you were expecting, in fact it could be something quite contrary to such expectations, (like, for example, that Christianity isn't the only game in town) but when you finally realise that and get over your troubles, you will be amazed at the wisdom of the Ultimate Source of All Being, and of the fact that we are all connected.
When you see this, and grasp it, there is nothing more that can break you down, and you will rule over Life.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
@FMF
What about the secret sayings of St. Troll the Gossip Stirrer who started a thread on a Gospel of Thomas he doesn't even like apparently ?
Generate vain gossip a lot?
(See Who Likes the Gospel of Thomas? )
Elader -
If you like the book how would you classify yourself? If you do not consider it a holy scripture, (actually holy, not just equal to books in the Bible) then why do you like it?
What is it to you?
(23) Jesus said: I shall choose you, one out of a thousand, and two out of ten thousand, and they shall stand as a single one.
(24) His disciples said: Teach us concerning the place where thou art, for it is necessary for us to seek after it. He said to them: He that hath ears, let him hear. There is a light within a man of light, and it gives light to the whole world. If it does not give light, there is darkness.
(25) Jesus said: Love thy brother as thy soul; keep him as the apple of thine eye.
(26) Jesus said: The mote which is in thy brother's eye, thou seest; but the beam which is in thine eye, thou seest not. When thou dost cast out the beam from thine own eye, then wilt thou see to cast out the mote from thy brother's eye.
(27) Jesus said: If you fast not from the world, you will not find the kingdom; if you keep not the Sabbath as Sabbath, you will not see the Father.
(28) Jesus said: I stood in the midst of the world, and I appeared to them in flesh. I found them all drunk, I found none among them thirsting; and my soul was afflicted for the sons of men, for they are blind in their heart and they do not see. For empty came they into the world, seeking also to depart empty from the world. But now they are drunk. When they have thrown off their wine, then will they repent.
These books were not included by the Church fathers because they regarded them as heretical or dubious in origins.
The agreed upon texts of the Bible were largely assembled by 170 AD and then canonized (except for Revelations) at the Council of Laodicea in 363 AD. The dates here are important because in the former one the Christians had yet to have any amount of real power at all, and were still a largely persecuted Church. There can be no argument that there was biases in selecting these books for the consolidation of Christian power.
The council also literally occurred when Emperor Julian the Apostate was reigning and had restored paganism -- the same year, Emperor Jovian came to the throne and restored Christianity as the state religion but also made is to that everyone was back to their free religious conscience and no one was to be repressed for being Christian or not.
The fact that the Gospel of Thomas was excluded was not a conspiracy but it was the sober judgment of the Christians that were most familiar with the texts -- and with persecution and living as a minority religion.
Some quick links:
https://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_(emperor)#Restoration_of_Paganism_as_state_religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinian_I
@philokalia saidDo you believe these verses do not report the words of Jesus?
These books were not included by the Church fathers because they regarded them as heretical or dubious in origins.
@philokalia saidPerhaps one of the most interesting books is the book of Enoch.
These books were not included by the Church fathers because they regarded them as heretical or dubious in origins.
The agreed upon texts of the Bible were largely assembled by 170 AD and then canonized (except for Revelations) at the Council of Laodicea in 363 AD. The dates here are important because in the former one the Christians had yet to have any amount of [i]rea ...[text shortened]... ian_(emperor)#Restoration_of_Paganism_as_state_religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinian_I
Enoch 1:9 "Behold, he will arrive with ten million: of the holy ones in order to execute judgment upon all. He will destroy the wicked ones and censure all flesh on account of everything that they have done, that which the sinners and the wicked ones committed against him"
Seemingly Jude is referencing the book of Enoch
Jude 1: 14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” 16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
So why leave Enoch out of the Cannon? Well, it may have to do with the harsh way Enoch describes the world governments.
Enoch 48: 6 For this purpose he became the Chosen One: he was concealed in the presence of the Lord of Spirits prior to the Creation of the world, and for eternity. And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression together with all its ways of life and its habits in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life. In those days, the kings of the earth and the mighty landowners shall be humiliated on account of the deeds of their hands. Therefore, on that day of their misery, and weariness, they will not be able to save themselves. I shall deliver them into the hands of my elect ones like grass in the fire an like lead in the water, so they will burn before the face of the holy ones and sink before their sight, and no place will be found for them........For they have denied the Lord of the Spirits and his Messiah. Blessed by the name of the Lord of Spirits."
Now I can only imagine what a man like Constantine would have done once he read this, being a king and all who did not even convert to the Christian faith as he continued to worship the pagan gods and even had his own family murdered for various reasons, so he punted on this from ever becoming part of the canonized Bible.