@pb1022 saidWell, we all die and that is the end. I will die. So will you. All those Jews died. So if that is termed "annihilation", I don't mind. Maybe they should have called them annihilation camps. There is no "less or more" objectionable about the inevitability of death. Eternal torture is merely a far-fetched ideology. It is a case of it being morally incoherent - the people who propagate it are morally incoherent. You might at well be asking me whether being tortured in vats of battery acid for eternity is "less objectionable" than being tortured in burning flames.
So I’m asking if you would find annihilationism less objectionable.
09 Mar 22
@kellyjay saidIf the Jews who were exterminated had believed in Jesus, they would have become "sinless" even if they had not been "good people"? That is what you believe?
It doesn't matter if you had a good life, a great life, or a horrible one; the happiness of man in this life isn't a meter for where you end up at judgment. The scales are not tipped for the kind of good people to the more horrible ones; it is purely sinless, or not.
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09 Mar 22
@fmf saidI’m honestly not sure what fate awaits those who are not saved by faith in Christ Jesus - whether it’s annihilationism; being in hell for a period of time short of eternity; or being in hell for eternity.
@PB1022
What's your answer to the OP?
Mine is no.
Moonbus' is no.
Rajk999's is no.
KellyJay's is, I think, yes.
Revelation 14:10, which is frequently quoted in here, refers to Satan worshippers and those who accepted the mark of the beast - not regular non-Christians.
If you were to pose the question another way and ask if Jews who died in the Holocaust and who had rejected Jesus Christ are in Heaven, I would say, based on my understanding of the Holy Bible, No.
Whether they simply ceased to exist upon physical death, were tormented in hell for a period of time (presumably commensurate with their sins) and then ceased to exist, or whether they’re forever tormented in hell, I don’t know.
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09 Mar 22
@fmf saidI think they would have had their sins forgiven.
If the Jews who were exterminated had believed in Jesus, they would have become "sinless" even if they had not been "good people"? That is what you believe?
I’m not sure that’s the same as being sinless.
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09 Mar 22
@fmf said<<Well, we all die and that is the end. I will die. So will you.>>
Well, we all die and that is the end. I will die. So will you. All those Jews died. So if that is termed "annihilation", I don't mind. Maybe they should have called them annihilation camps. There is no "less or more" objectionable about the inevitability of death. Eternal torture is merely a far-fetched ideology. It is a case of it being morally incoherent - the people who propag ...[text shortened]... in vats of battery acid for eternity is "less objectionable" than being tortured in burning flames.
I’m not so sure that’s the case. Two people in the Holy Bible (Enoch and Elijah) did not die but were taken to Heaven while still alive.
And in the Rapture, Christians who are alive on the earth will be taken directly to Heaven and not die.
Some preachers believe this current generation on earth, presumably the younger of the generations alive today, are the Rapture generation. Very well could be.
But no one knows the timing, save God the Father.
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09 Mar 22
@fmf saidIt’s six of one, half dozen of the other as far as I’m concerned.
I suggest you ask KellyJay for clarification.
09 Mar 22
@pb1022 saidIf you do not believe that death is the end and if believing this gives you a sense of purpose and meaning in life, then so be it.
<<Well, we all die and that is the end. I will die. So will you.>>
I’m not so sure that’s the case. Two people in the Holy Bible (Enoch and Elijah) did not die but were taken to Heaven while still alive.
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09 Mar 22
@fmf saidYou seem pretty certain that death is the end and there’s no afterlife. What do you have backing up that belief?
If you do not believe that death is the end and if believing this gives you a sense of purpose and meaning in life, then so be it.
Tangentially speaking, I have a Holy Bible with many accurate Messianic prophecies, as well as scientific facts that were thousands of years ahead of man’s knowledge at the time.
What do you have?
Feelings?
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09 Mar 22
@fmf saidThe question isn’t that important to me.
I suggest you ask KellyJay for clarification as to whether, in his view, it is [1] six of one, or [2] half dozen of the other.
09 Mar 22
@pb1022 saidThe 40 billion or so human beings that have died and were buried, and have been gone ever since, "back up" my belief. And the lack of any evidence ~ aside from the speculations and aspirations of theists ~ that any of them are still living in any sense or shape or form consolidates my belief.
You seem pretty certain that death is the end and there’s no afterlife. What do you have backing up that belief?
We obviously die. The burden of proof is on those who believe that death is not the end to offer some evidence of human immortality. Their faith is not evidence. Theology is not evidence. Assertions are not evidence.
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@fmf saidI forgot one.
The 40 billion or so human beings that have died and were buried, and have been gone ever since, "back up" my belief. And the lack of any evidence ~ aside from the speculations and aspirations of theists ~ that any of them are still living in any sense or shape or form consolidates my belief.
We obviously die. The burden of proof is on those who believe that death is not the ...[text shortened]... man immortality. Their faith is not evidence. Theology is not evidence. Assertions are not evidence.
I have a Holy Bible with many accurate Messianic prophecies and with scientific facts that were thousands of years ahead of humans’ knowledge at the time.
Plus, I have scores of people who have had NDEs (near death experiences) testifying to an afterlife, many of which witnessed things (doctors operating in a certain manner, loved ones in a waiting room conversing in a certain way) they could not have possibly known unless they had left their body.
You have nothing.