Spirituality
18 Aug 09
18 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by SwissGambit========================
No such list would be complete without the guy who wrote Revelations.
No such list would be complete without the guy who wrote Revelations.
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The book is called "Revelation" (singular).
And it is one book in which Christ explicitely tells us that one of His churches was involved in the occult "the deep things of Satan as they say" (ch.2 and v.24), That is the letter to the church in Thyatira - chapter 2:18-29.
I thought that was what you were looking for, the "obvious" delving into the occult by a Christian church.
There you have it, straight from the Bible itself.
19 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Bosse de NageWell if "the dictionary" say it then it must be so. đ
According to the dictionary definition of 'occult', Fundamentalist Protestants and traditionalist Catholics are occultists.
It's obvious, no?
The funny part is, people who question intently the Bible regarding who wrote it and why and from what biased perspective pick up a dictionary as though it were an innerrant word spoked directly from God himself!!
As for the word "occult" it has a negative connotation. I think we can all agree with that, and is probably why it amuses you that it might also include main stream religion. In short this is nothing more that a cheap shot if you ask me, so I guess if it amuses you, more the merrier.
My take on "occultism", however, is any spiritual "tinkerings" that deviate from focusing on God himself. This includes any religion whose focus is the organization rather than God or a charismatic personality rather than God or another spiritual intentity rather than God. Of course, my definition did not make it into Websters, so what do I know? đ
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by whodey"As for the word "occult" it has a negative connotation. I think we can all agree with that"
Well if "the dictionary" say it then it must be so. đ
The funny part is, people who question intently the Bible regarding who wrote it and why and from what biased perspective pick up a dictionary as though it were an innerrant word spoked directly from God himself!!
As for the word "occult" it has a negative connotation. I think we can all agree wit ...[text shortened]... han God. Of course, my definition did not make it into Websters, so what do I know? đ
All of us? Even the occultists themselves?
No, I don't think so. The definition by the occultists must be the right one, it's their game.
19 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyI can't stand the hypersensitive passive aggressiveness that you, jaywill & others display when discussing issues like this. Just so you know.
As for the word "occult" it has a negative connotation. I think we can all agree with that, and is probably why it amuses you that it might also include main stream religion. In short this is nothing more that a cheap shot if you ask me, so I guess if it amuses you, more the merrier.
My take on "occultism", however, is any spiritual "tinkerings" that d ...[text shortened]... than God. Of course, my definition did not make it into Websters, so what do I know? đ
However, you have isolated the crux of the matter. 'Occult' has acquired a negative connotation -- but for whom? Not for me; I hold the teachings of Gurdjieff and Billy Graham in equal esteem. However, growing up, I was surrounded by people terrified of 'the Occult'. 'Don't read that, it's occult!' So I understand that for you, 'occult' is really a synonym for devil-worship. But strictly defined, 'occult' merely means that which is hidden. Unless your God is manifest, not hidden, you are an occultist. Can you get your head around that? You're in good company, as it happens. Apart from the fact that Jesus talked about unseen things all the time, and was therefore an occultist, Newton himself was accused of occultism with his talk of an unseen Law of Gravity; and he was passionately interested in Revelation all his life, convinced that the Word contained hidden (that is, occult) secrets that properly interpreted could be laid bare for all the world to see.
You speak of mainstream religion -- an interesting point. When did Fundamentalism become mainstream (in terms of numbers) in the USA? Only in the 20th century. Before then, the type of thinking associated with Fundamentalism was on the fringe (as it still is in civilised countries), right up there with the people who had to go home after the Great Disappointment. Which is why some people now talk of 'mainstream religious extremism'.
Bonus question: Why is Fundamentalism so-called?
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillThat wasn't quite what I was after. I'm not attempting to paint Fundamentalists as devil-worshippers. Or have I misunderstood what you are trying to defend?
I thought that was what you were looking for, the "obvious" delving into the occult by a Christian church.
There you have it, straight from the Bible itself.
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by jaywillSorry, I didn't intend to claim that Billy Graham believed in ghosts specifically. However it seems from the quote that he believed in various aspects of the supernatural and 'the occult' or at least wanted his audience to believe in them.
But that Graham believed that the departed spirits of dead persons had any interaction at all with the living, as the typical understanding of [b] "ghosts" is, ....? I wouldn't hold my breath while you searched for evidence of Billy Graham having believed in that.[/b]
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI think you are making a mistake when you take what the dictionary says to be the one true definition. The term obviously has an origin, various uses along the way and various current uses. There is no such thing as 'strictly defined' when dealing with general language.
But strictly defined, 'occult' merely means that which is hidden.
I fully agree however that it is within your rights to call a Christian an 'occultist' but just be aware of the negative connotations of the word. For example according to one dictionary, the word 'nigger' comes 'from French nègre, from Spanish negro black.' But use it at your peril.
My experience with the word 'occult' has led me to associate it with communication with the dead and other supernatural 'dabbling' separate from mainstream religion. Its not a word I would use very often though. Its not even a word that would spring to mind when thinking of Harry Potter.
19 Aug 09
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Originally posted by jaywillSo is your understanding of the word "occult" equivalent to "the deep things of Satan"? I am not saying you are wrong or anything, I merely want to know how you use or understand the word.
And it is one book in which Christ explicitely tells us that one of His churches was involved in the occult [b]"the deep things of Satan as they say" (ch.2 and v.24), That is the letter to the church in Thyatira - chapter 2:18-29.[/b]
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't claim to be in possession of the 'one true definition'. I could say 'according to the root meaning' instead of 'strictly defined'. The history or histories of the word 'occult' can easily be traced on the Internet and form part of this discussion. Having spent a number of formative years in a deeply superstitious part of suburban Johannesburg, complete with a King's School, I have a fair grasp of the perils that I'm running. For example, my childhood friend's uncle once took an electric breadknife to a copy of The Fellowship of the Ring that I had lent him, claiming that it was 'occult'!
I think you are making a mistake when you take what the dictionary says to be the one true definition. The term obviously has an origin, various uses along the way and various current uses. There is no such thing as 'strictly defined' when dealing with general language.
I fully agree however that it is within your rights to call a Christian an 'occultis ...[text shortened]... nigger' comes 'from French nègre, from Spanish negro black.' But use it at your peril.
19 Aug 09
4 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadI think it is nice to be careful what you write and put out accurate information. The next thing you know you have 20 people claiming that they got it somewhere that evangelist Billy Graham believed in ghosts.
Sorry, I didn't intend to claim that Billy Graham believed in ghosts specifically. However it seems from the quote that he believed in various aspects of the supernatural and 'the occult' or at least wanted his audience to believe in them.
As for the Revelation passage, Jesus said "the deep things of Satan, as they speak". In other words the things are "deep" to people, they are not deep to Christ, whose divine eyes penetrate into all hidden things of life. "Deep", as they speak.
As for that being a definition of Occult, I am not sure. But I never have thought of a genuine prayer to God as involved in the occult and never would. Or I would not consider receiving Christ as the Savior as dabbling in the occult. And I would not have kind words for anyone who thinks regeneration is in the occult.
www.regenerated.net
I would probably say something offensive like anyone thinking the experience of the Holy Spirit is part of the Occult is a total idiot. Admittedly an ad hominiem.
But if I saw people dancing with poisoness snakes in their mouths and claiming that Mark's Gospel said they should do that because no poison would effect them, I would say that is either superstitious or bordering on the occult.
Generally, Satan is behind the occult. And Satan can sprinkle "Christian symbols" all over occult activity to of course, give it a facade of "spirituality". That is totally typical.
19 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage=================
I can't stand the hypersensitive passive aggressiveness that you, jaywill & others display when discussing issues like this. Just so you know.
However, you have isolated the crux of the matter. 'Occult' has acquired a negative connotation -- but for whom? Not for me; I hold the teachings of Gurdjieff and Billy Graham in equal esteem. However, growin ream religious extremism'.
Bonus question: Why is Fundamentalism so-called?
Bonus question: Why is Fundamentalism so-called?
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I am not sure.
I guess I miss the Bonus. Something to do with the "fundamental tenets" of the Christian Faith I suppose.
Have you heard of "Inner Life" Christians?
Have you heard of "Deeper Life" Christians?
For example, Andrew Murray is a writer who certainly would hold to the basic tenets of the Gospel. But his emphasis would be more on a deeper spiritual walk with Christ, deeper communion, deeper maturity. etc.
Same would apply to T. Austin Sparks.
Derek Prince would be someone holding to the fundamental tenets of the Christian Faith. But he would probably be classified as a Charismatic teacher since he emphasizes the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
With the public at large I think Fundamentalist just means a person believing in the basic few tenets of the Christian doctrine, like virgin birth, redemptive death, resurrection, and second coming of Christ the Son of God.
19 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywill"The word 'Fundamentalism' originally referred to a series of a dozen pamplets entitled The Fundamentals*, which were distributed free of charge by the American Bible League between 1909 and 1915. [...] The Fundamentals emphasised two key points. The first was the truth of the infallible Bible [...]. The second point stressed the concept of the born-again Christian [...]." (David S. Katz)
I guess I miss the Bonus. Something to do with the "fundamental tenets" of the Christian Faith I suppose.
19 Aug 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageThanks. That sounds plausible.
"The word 'Fundamentalism' originally referred to a series of a dozen pamplets entitled The Fundamentals*, which were distributed free of charge by the American Bible League between 1909 and 1915. [...] The Fundamentals emphasised two key points. The first was the truth of the infallible Bible [...]. The second point stressed the concept of the born-again Christian [...]." (David S. Katz)
19 Aug 09
2 edits
I would refer to a book entitled Occult ABC by Kurt Koch, published by Kregel. I have an English translation. It was written in German. And the writer is an expert on the subject, IMO. And has many counseling experiences of some rather unusual events of practitioners of the occult.
Many of them were seeking deliverance from it.
He writes on about 71 practices which he classifies as part of the Occult.