28 Jun 21
@philokalia saidNo. I disagree. I think I have encapsulated your point perfectly. As usual, the capital letters indicate a distillation of the persistent circular nature of the claims you make about supernatural things.
I think you've misunderstood the post. It is absurd to think that unremarkable people are subjected to supernatural events & bargains with any kind of regularity. However, there is a God, and He is involved in the human experience, and human history.
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There are a number of lectures and videos on the remains of Sodom and Gamorrah I have seen over the years. I would only post one which I found interesting and which makes a credible case. I think this one makes a credible case.
I think many people will be too annoyed to hear it through to the end which I did before posting a link here to it.
The building like structures is believable to me.
The analysis of the burnable sulfur is credible to me.
The location is more credible then the alternative opinion that the Sodom is
covered by water now.
It is at least as reasonably thought through as David Attenborough telling me 60 millions years ago what some pre-human ancestor did one afternoon in detail or Carl Sagan telling me how many advanced civilizations should be in the galaxy with equivalent confidence.
28 Jun 21
@sonship saidBut why should I spend time perusing your evidence, when you've got a Supernatural card in your pocket?
There are a number of lectures and videos on the remains of Sodom and Gamorrah I have seen over the years. I would only post one which I found interesting and which makes a credible case. I think this one makes a credible case.
I think many people will be too annoyed to hear it through to the end which I did before posting a link here to it.
The building like ...[text shortened]... Sagan telling me how many advanced civilizations should be in the galaxy with equivalent confidence.
Do you have any idea where the border between Natural and Supernatural is?
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29 Jun 21
2 edits
But why should I spend time perusing your evidence, when you've got a Supernatural card in your pocket?
Do you have any idea where the border between Natural and Supernatural is?
That might be a challenge. God could do things in a way which our science understands something about. For example either the long day of Joshua or the sun dial moving backwards for king Hezekiah, I think could be "miraculous" interventions of God by using astronomical means.
I imagine that if perhaps a black hole entered into the solar system it could do something peculiar with the light of the sun and moon, warping the space-time realm with its intense gravity.
I am just saying that as we move more into the 21rst century I see more rather than less means at God's disposal to accomplish effects He wants to have happen for His purposes.
Anyway the very creation of the universe must be caused by means across the boundary of the natural and supernatural. Forces that we have no way of knowing are super natural. And space, time, energy are said to have had their beginning in God's creative act. (Gen. 1:1)
In God and the Astronomers, Dr. Robert Jastrow, world-renowned astrophysicist, describes the astronomical discoveries of recent years and the theological implications of the new insights afforded by science into mankind's place in the cosmos.
Maybe you have seen this quote from him.
" For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
Or this one?
“Astronomers now find they have painted themselves into a corner because they have proven, by their own methods, that the world began abruptly in an act of creation to which you can trace the seeds of every star, every planet, every living thing in this cosmos and on the earth. And they have found that all this happened as a product of forces they cannot hope to discover. That there are what I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact.”
29 Jun 21
@eladar saidIf you're referring to me, you've misunderstood my post.
Odd how some believe that such a video must convince them to be of interest and worthy of watching. I guess they feel only their opions are worthy.
It certainly would not be the first time.
29 Jun 21
@sonship saidWell, Jastrow sound like a theist. Many scientists are also theists.
@BigDoggProblemBut why should I spend time perusing your evidence, when you've got a Supernatural card in your pocket?
Do you have any idea where the border between Natural and Supernatural is?
That might be a challenge. God could do things in a way which our science understands something about. For example either the long day of Joshua or the sun ...[text shortened]... t I or anyone would call supernatural forces at work is now, I think, a scientifically proven fact.”
I don't know all of his beliefs, but I would be surprised if he believed, for example, in 6000 year old earth.
We humans like to write narratives about the things we believe and observe. If we want to be taken seriously, we try and write a more cohesive narrative. Even if we succeed, the story is not necessarily true.
I think it is likely that humans will never discover all the facts about the universe. In that sense, I disagree with Jastrow. I don't think we're so near to the top of the Mountain of Knowledge. I think we have made a lot of progress, and our ego takes it from there, and claims our journey of learning is near the end.
There are still large unsolved problems in science. For example, could String Theory be correct? Right now, we have no way to test it. Even our largest particle collider cannot generate enough energy for that.
I think it is a considerable overstatement, on his part, to claim that Science has proven the Supernatural.
I am not even sure the concept of Supernatural is coherent. (Stole this point from twhitehead, but I think it's on the money.)
30 Jun 21
@bigdoggproblem saidThat's a good question.
But why should I spend time perusing your evidence, when you've got a Supernatural card in your pocket?
Do you have any idea where the border between Natural and Supernatural is?
The traditional belief, as far as I can tell, is that there is none. It is very modern to compartmentalize.
It can still be a miracle even when it is explainable through purely natural terms.
30 Jun 21
@sonship said“Annoyed”?
I think many people will be too annoyed to hear it through to the end which I did before posting a link here to it.
Annoyed with what?
@eladar saidWell I’m a Christian and I still think that it is complete twaddle. Worse than that; it is an insult to my intelligence and to the intelligence of the people sonship is trying ineffectively to cajole into watching it.
Odd how some believe that such a video must convince them to be of interest and worthy of watching. I guess they feel only their opions are worthy.
Edit; I’m not saying that these cities didn’t exist, nor am I saying that God didn’t destroy them. I’m just saying that this video is complete unscientific, aimed at the gullible, twaddle.
30 Jun 21
@philokalia saidSo essentially, the position you've described is "God of the gaps"?
That's a good question.
The traditional belief, as far as I can tell, is that there is none. It is very modern to compartmentalize.
It can still be a miracle even when it is explainable through purely natural terms.
And miracles are things that happen only in the gaps?
30 Jun 21
@divegeester saidDid I make a distinction between those who believe they are Christian and those who do not?
Well I’m a Christian and I still think that it is complete twaddle. Worse than that; it is an insult to my intelligence and to the intelligence of the people sonship is trying ineffectively to cajole into watching it.
Edit; I’m not saying that these cities didn’t exist, nor am I saying that God didn’t destroy them. I’m just saying that this video is complete unscientific, aimed at the gullible, twaddle.
Homey don't think so.
01 Jul 21
@bigdoggproblem saidNo, it is an interpenetration of the divine in the mundane.
So essentially, the position you've described is "God of the gaps"?
And miracles are things that happen only in the gaps?
Everything can be considered miraculous and a part of God's unfolding plan.
Which reminds me of the great words of realization from the film Journal of a Country Priest: All is grace.