24 Jun 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadSince God is going to raise us with a perfect, incorruptable body, I rest assured in the fact that He will make sure that our sould are equally perfect and free of diseases, No, I can't point to a chapter and verse. It's just common sense.
Its not nearly so simple as you make it sound.
For my first argument, I ask the question "continuity from when?".
If I go mad before I die, will my soul be mad?
If I loose all my memory before I die (not uncommon), will my soul have no memory?
etc.
24 Jun 08
Originally posted by josephwYes, I am saying that, and more. As I said, one of my arguments has to do with continuity, if your conciousness slowly evaporates at death, there really is little or nothing left to continue from.
You say here that any such claim is incompatible with what we know about consciousness. Are you saying that what we do know about consciousness doesn't support the idea that consciousness can continue after death?
24 Jun 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydAnd I am curious as to whether that perfect, incorruptible body and soul will really be 'me'. What if my failings are my defining attributes?
Since God is going to raise us with a perfect, incorruptable body, I rest assured in the fact that He will make sure that our sould are equally perfect and free of diseases, No, I can't point to a chapter and verse. It's just common sense.
24 Jun 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadLet's say, for the sake of the argument, that the consciousness resides in the soul. The soul occupies the body. The body dies, but the soul, which is not material, continues to exist. Then it fallows that the consciousness continues to exist as well.
Yes, I am saying that, and more. As I said, one of my arguments has to do with continuity, if your conciousness slowly evaporates at death, there really is little or nothing left to continue from.
That is what I believe. But never mind that for now. Unless you want to comment on it. I'd like to get to the bottom of this debate somehow, someway, someday! If you know what I mean.
Why do you say that the consciousness slowly evaporates at death? Is there some device which can measure consciousness? Do you measure consciousness as brain wave activity?
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24 Jun 08
Originally posted by josephwThese verses do not say we will be immediately in the Lord's presence. We will be, at His return...
2Co.5:1-8
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle ...[text shortened]... logy doesn't necessarily mean it is false. Although it may well be a corruption of the truth.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol( grave), whither thou goest.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In Sheol who shall give thee thanks?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
How much clearer can this be?
25 Jun 08
Originally posted by josephwIt is not easy to explain what I mean. Can you start by answering my question about whether memories lost to the living mind are lost to the soul as well, and my question about whether insanity is also carried over to the soul.
Why do you say that the consciousness slowly evaporates at death? Is there some device which can measure consciousness? Do you measure consciousness as brain wave activity?
25 Jun 08
[. Can you start by answering my question about whether memories lost to the living mind are lost to the soul as well, .[/b]your knowledge of this world[if thats how you mean your question], will be as your knowledge of the the other world as it is now. as that life will be real and this life unreal. Thats my understanding.
Reason if you meet someone else forgiven of sins and they upset you at some point, and you remember then sin enters and that will not happen.
25 Jun 08
Originally posted by checkbaiterSo you believe in soul sleep? You may be right, but the verse from psalm 6 was written prior to Christ. Whether we are conscious after death until the return of Christ or not, when we die we go to be with the Lord. Where else would we go? Is there some other place?
These verses do not say we will be immediately in the Lord's presence. We will be, at His return...
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol( grave), whither thou goest.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: In Sheol who shall give thee ...[text shortened]... th the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
How much clearer can this be?
I'm not trying to debate this with you. I'm only trying to be clear.
25 Jun 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadThis isn't going to be easy you know! Let me explain something. We have been taught that we think with our brain. While in the body, the soul and spirit are as much a part of the body as the body is a part of the soul and spirit. It's all one, yet three parts of the whole. Brain damage has it's corresponding effect on the whole so that our thinking is impaired.
It is not easy to explain what I mean. Can you start by answering my question about whether memories lost to the living mind are lost to the soul as well, and my question about whether insanity is also carried over to the soul.
Let me break it down. The spirit gives us God consciousness and is the seat of our thoughts.
The soul is the seat of our identity and gives us self consciousness.
The body is the vehicle that carries our soul and spirit and gives us world consciousness. The body is the interface between our soul and spirit and this material world.
Now this makes perfect sense if one believes in God and that we where created in His image and His likeness. God is Himself a triune being and so are we.
Does this shed any more light on your question? If not, then let's dig a little bit more.
25 Jun 08
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadFinally, someone has taken up my challenge to discuss the soul. josephw has said he would like to discuss it.
No, I'm afraid it doesn't. How about you try to answer the questions, I think it would help with my understanding of your belief.
For my first argument, I ask the question "continuity from when?".
If I go mad before I die, will my soul be mad?
If I loose all my memory before I die (not uncommon), will my soul have no memory?
etc.
The argument is not so much in the last two questions but in the 'continuity from when' question. First that must be answered (by someone who actually believes it hopefully).
Alright. I went back through your posts to try to get refocused, and I see that you are mainly interested in the answer to the question having to do with continuity. You asked, "continuity from when?" I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. I'm not trying to be evasive. I hope you know that. Could you please rephrase the question in such a way that I can understand exactly what it is you mean by "continuity from when"? It seems that there is something missing in the question. Am I wrong?
26 Jun 08
this is terrible; i've never seen a question take this long to be answered. what he wants to know is, do you (Christians) believe that when you die you go to heaven in your current mind state? for example if you die w/ brain damage or other complications, do you live in heaven w/ them as well?
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26 Jun 08
Originally posted by josephwI'm not sure we go anywhere. Remember God restoring the "bones" in the OT?...He can restore us anytime, regardless of when we die, or what remains are left if any. My problem with death after life(which I do not believe is biblical) is that it leads to Spiritualism.ie. seances, communicating with the dead, and so on. I believe Satan has introduced alot of erroneus teaching for this very purpose.
So you believe in soul sleep? You may be right, but the verse from psalm 6 was written prior to Christ. Whether we are conscious after death until the return of Christ or not, when we die we go to be with the Lord. Where else would we go? Is there some other place?
I'm not trying to debate this with you. I'm only trying to be clear.
Why does the bible say "the dead in Christ" will be raised first? Then, we which are alive and remain? What would be the purpose if I am already there?
Eccl 9:10
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
(NKJ)
and again...
Ps 6:5
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; in the grave who will give You thanks?
(NKJ)
Surely, if I died and were in the presence of the Lord, would not I be giving thanks? In death there is no remembrance?...
I believe the bible teaches in death there is no consciencesness. When I turn off the light switch, where does the electricity go? Or the light?
Ezek 37:4-13
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
(KJV)
I am not debating you either, I just need someone to explain my findings if I am wrong...but I find this very interesting, especially when one considers that Satan is the father of lies and his aim is to destroy God's words and His people. God said on the day you eat of.....you will die....Satan says you will live....
26 Jun 08
Originally posted by josephwThe most fundamental part of what I am getting at is what constitutes "I". In my personal opinion, "I" is a continuously changing entity that includes my body, my conciousness, my memories etc.
Alright. I went back through your posts to try to get refocused, and I see that you are mainly interested in the answer to the question having to do with continuity. You asked, "continuity from when?" I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. I'm not trying to be evasive. I hope you know that. Could you please rephrase the question in such a way that I can ...[text shortened]... tinuity from when"? It seems that there is something missing in the question. Am I wrong?
If you took my 5 year old self and sent it to heaven, I would no longer see it as 'me'. I might not even want it to happen.
If I had my memory wiped out and was then sent to heaven, would I really be 'me'?
If my character was fundamentally changed, would I still be 'me'?
What I am getting at, is that I am fully aware that my thoughts and emotions are heavily influenced by my memories, my brain structure, my inputs (what I am hearing/seeing/feeling etc at the time), and even by hormones/drugs etc.
What constitutes 'me' is so tightly integrated with my body that if you take my body away, it would not be 'me'.
I am frequently told by theists that 'they' are going to heaven and the 'I' will either go to heaven and hell, yet on further investigation it appears that that is not at all the case.
I have absolutely no interest in my left toe making it to heaven, what I am trying to find out is whether my 'soul' constitutes enough of what I call 'me' for me to be interested in its future after my death.
When I brought up the topic before, some of the descriptions of the soul that I was given, did not pass the 'me' test. Those that do pass the 'me' test, do not fit with what I know about the human body.
26 Jun 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadHang on. I'm am too pressed for time this morning to answer this in a meaningful way. Let me think about this today, and tonight I will tell you the answer to the best of my ability.
The most fundamental part of what I am getting at is what constitutes "I". In my personal opinion, "I" is a continuously changing entity that includes my body, my conciousness, my memories etc.
If you took my 5 year old self and sent it to heaven, I would no longer see it as 'me'. I might not even want it to happen.
If I had my memory wiped out and was ...[text shortened]... pass the 'me' test, do not fit with what I know about the human body.