17 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75Perhaps you just do not understand what I am asking. Let me try again.
Again the Bible has given historical examples of ones being resurrected. If one were to read those and learn about those that were resurrected, one would see the answers there you are asking me.
But I know you will probably choose not to read those events. So all I can tell you it has happened in the past and Jehovah is able to resurrect any human, the ...[text shortened]... day? Is it not wonderfull that God can do this and allow you to see them again in the future?
According to your beliefs, person S1 dies at natural death and nothing of S1 survives this. Then, sometime later, God creates a "resurrected" person S2 that based on His memory is supposed to bear some intimate relation to S1. But, I am asking what reasons you have for thinking that S2 is numerically identical to S1; rather than thinking that S2 is simply a new person distinct from S1. This question deals with the subject of personal identity and what exactly makes some person one and the same person over time.
Basically, why are the persons who supposedly get created and set up down the road in earthly paradise simply not new distinct persons?
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17 Apr 13
Originally posted by SuzianneThat's why I added my note or disclaimer. I don't agree either, but I do agree with the hell part. As someone once said, eat the fish and spit out the bones..🙂
Can we get back to the conversation now?
checkbaiter, this is an interesting page. Yes, it's basically about Annihilationism, but there are *many* things here I cannot agree with, and I do subscribe to the ideas of Annihilation over 'eternal torment'.
I wondered how can whoever wrote this get the basic idea of Annihilation right, and yet get so muc ...[text shortened]... I didn't agree with a lot of what they were saying on this page you linked about hell.
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by SuzianneOh dear. You can go back to sleep now.
Never heard of the soul, eh?
Well, that figures, one would hardly expect one who doesn't believe in something to be fluent in it.
I just have to wonder, why then, do you have all this urgent opinion on the matter?
I am in that post asking Galvo about his beliefs, which as you are apparently not aware, explicitly deny that there is any soul that survives natural death.
If you're going to jump into the discussion, at least try to keep up, ok?
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17 Apr 13
Originally posted by galveston75I agree too. But we do know some things. We know that all the fruits of the spirit are what He is like. In fact we need look no further than His Son Jesus. He is a mirror image of what God is like. Not in likeness, but character.
Actually I agree with you on this. Many here do not realize who God is and how high on levels we cannot imagine that his might and wisdom are.
The Bible says "his thoughts and ways or not our ways". Many try to put humans faults into God and thus makesmany have escuses for what we may concieve as mistakes by him.
But the picture is so much larger th ...[text shortened]... as managed to make God look really bad and even weak at times but that is far from the truth.
But I do think many Christians go to church and check their brain at the door instead of their hat.
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterLol I agree. My Mom was raised Baptist but she admitted that she never really learned anything and a few things like the trinity seemd bizar to her.
I agree too. But we do know some things. We know that all the fruits of the spirit are what He is like. In fact we need look no further than His Son Jesus. He is a mirror image of what God is like. Not in likeness, but character.
But I do think many Christians go to church and check their brain at the door instead of their hat.
But anyway yes on a human level since God gave us qualities that he has himself, that is a major advantage of knowing some of his ways. But I'm speaking more I guess on a level of knowledge and wisdom that we barely know. There are still many things on our own planet that we don't get at all much less out in the universe with physical elements, but then imagine all the spiritual creations such as angels that we have no idea about their existance and their history and even their concept of time compared to ours.
So much to learn....
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17 Apr 13
1 edit
Well, we've had a few scoffers.
Now someone please answer me this question.
Why would Jesus Christ say that it would have been better if Judas had not been born ?
"The Son of Man is going away, even as it is written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matthew 26:24)
Now what could Jesus be refering to that is so bad that it would have been advantageous to Judas Iscariot if he had never been born ?
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipTHE LAKE OF FIRE!
Well, we've had a few scoffers.
Now someone please answer me this question.
Why would [b]Jesus Christ say that it would have been better if Judas had not been born ?
"The Son of Man is going away, even as it is written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man ...[text shortened]... is so bad that it would have been advantageous to Judas Iscariot if he had never been born ?
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:8 NKJV)
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17 Apr 13
5 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsI suspect that you must be right.
THE LAKE OF FIRE!
[b]"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:8 NKJV)[/b]
Now let me see what some of the more skeptical would reply.
Checkbaiter ?
Suzianne ?
What do you think the loving, gracious, merciful but righteous Savior Jesus could be refering to when He says it would have been good for Judas had he never been born ?
"The Son of Man is going away, even as it is written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." (Matt. 26:24)
I will accept "I don't know" as a valid answer.
But then do not criticize some of us who dare to imagine what Jesus was possibly refering to. Fair ?
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17 Apr 13
1 edit
"The Truth About Hell"
Checkbaiter,
What could possibly be so undesireable that a sinner might say "It would have been better if I had never been born, had never existed at all" ?
See Christ's words regarding one Judas Iscariot - (Matt. 26:24)
What do you think is the truth concerning this passage ?
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17 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipI don't know, but I would guess the misery and guilt he felt afterwards. So much so, that he killed himself. I also think some might be surprised to see Judas in Paradise. Jesus was figuratively speaking about his suicide. My opinion, of course. I will have to wait til I get home to find the verses that make me suggest that.
[b] "The Truth About Hell"
Checkbaiter,
What could possibly be so undesireable that a sinner might say "It would have been better if I had never been born, had never existed at all" ?
See Christ's words regarding one Judas Iscariot - (Matt. 26:24)
What do you think is the truth concerning this passage ?[/b]
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17 Apr 13
8 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterNotice though how similar the passage is to another passage from Matthew. Compare the two please:
I don't know, but I would guess the misery and guilt he felt afterwards. So much so, that he killed himself. I also think some might be surprised to see Judas in Paradise. Jesus was figuratively speaking about his suicide. My opinion, of course. I will have to wait til I get home to find the verses that make me suggest that.
Matthew 26:24 - " ... woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
Matthew 18:8 - "If your hand or your foot stumbles you, cut it off and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire."
One passage says it would have been good to not have been born rather than to experience X.
The other passage says it would be better to enter life minus a hand or a foot rather than to be cast into the eternal fire
Is it reasonable to understand that "X" in the first case (26:24) is also "the eternal fire" of (18:8)?
Would you charge those making such a connection are overly enfluenced by Greek Mythology ? These were, afterall, words spoken by the Lord Jesus.
Similarly -
"And if your eye stumbles you, pluck it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life with one eye than to have two eyes and be cast into the Gehenna of fire." (18:9)
Is it reasonable to understand "X" = "the eternal fire" = "the Gehenna of fire" ?
I am not trying to force you to believe something you find very unpleasant to believe. I simply ask if you see reasonableness in the assumption that Christ in all these cases, is speaking fearful words about essentially the same thing ?
17 Apr 13
Originally posted by sonshipPerhaps it was because he was the human that betrayed God's son Jesus which lead to his death?
Well, we've had a few scoffers.
Now someone please answer me this question.
Why would [b]Jesus Christ say that it would have been better if Judas had not been born ?
"The Son of Man is going away, even as it is written concerning Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man ...[text shortened]... is so bad that it would have been advantageous to Judas Iscariot if he had never been born ?
It just could be that he betrayed the son of God and that might be something that could not be overlooked and forgiven and maybe will not be resurrected?
That will be up to Jehovah....
"The course that Judas chose was a deliberate one, involving malice, greed, pride, hypocrisy, and scheming. He afterward felt remorse under the burden of guilt, as a willful murderer might at the result of his crime. Yet Judas had of his own volition made a bargain with those who Jesus said made proselytes that were subjects of Gehenna twice as much as themselves, who were also liable to “the judgment of Gehenna.” (Mt 23:15, 33) On the final night of his earthly life, Jesus himself said, actually about Judas: “It would have been finer for that man if he had not been born.” Later Christ called him “the son of destruction.”—Mr 14:21; Joh 17:12; Heb 10:26-29." Int#2
17 Apr 13
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHinds"... which is the second death.”
THE LAKE OF FIRE!
[b]"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:8 NKJV)[/b]
Yes, the second death. The death of the soul.
Matthew 10:28 suddenly has new importance, eh?
jaywill, did you even see my post responding to yours at the end of page 8 in the thread 'John 3:16'? If you did, you never replied to it.
EDIT: Bah! Here this post sits at the end of another page. I suppose you'll never see it, either.