16 May 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadOk, point taken about hypothesis. However, 'dark matter' fits precisely with definition # 1. It can't be observed in our visible universe. We only see its effects, and even that is called to question, if other hypotheses are true, like small mods to newonian gravity.
From webster
Supernatural
1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)
Qui ...[text shortened]... ok up "theory" before you use it so carelessly. 'Hypothesis' would suit your meaning better.
So untill that is worked out, it is very much a supernatural phenomena.
10 Oct 07
Originally posted by sonhouseIf I could frive to the point where the universe end/is expanding, and if I then could hit the gas and exceed the speed of light by a factor of C^23, pushing me over the barrier between where the universe is and where it is destined to expand, what would I see? If I turned on the headlights, would it make a difference?
It does not go on forever, but if you think about traveling on a globe such as the earrth, you can drive a million miles, lets say there was a freeway all the way round earth on the equator, you could drive forever and not come to the end. The universe is like that but on a higher dimensional level, If you go in a straight line, at some distance point in ti ...[text shortened]... ght" unquote🙂 He also said its STILL expanding faster than the speed of light.
News at 11🙂
10 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomThere are two things you have to understand.
is there a point where you hit a barrier and there is no more space, or does it go on forever?
1. Space is in the 5th dimension (the 4th being time) to the 3rd dimension as the 3rd dimension is the 2nd.
This means: In the second (or "on" as the case would be) dimension you can move left and right infinitely, but as you have a third dimension, moving left ultimately brings you back to the beginning, but from the right hand side.
Take a flat piece of paper. You can move any direction you want, but it stops. Fold the piece of paper into a ball and any direction you move, you come back to your original starting point.
"Space" is the same. But instead of moving left, right, up or down, you can also move "away".
2. Just because space is expanding doesn't mean there aren't multiple spaces expanding, shrinking, etc. There are probably an infinite number of spaces blowing up, disintegrating, etc. In an infinite amount of time.
So no. You won't hit a barrier, you'll just, ultimately, return to from where you started.
And no. It doesn't go on forever.
And so. there must be more of them "breathing" as it were for ultimate amounts of time.
And that's why we are.
Because in all this expansion and despansion over an infinite amount of time in an infinite amount of places, it's just a matter of "time" before something triggers the start of something like us.
10 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by EcstremeVenomIt's so big that if for each of i=1, 2, ..., n light years you travel in one direction you would gain 1/(i*i) IQ points, you could travel forever and never get to the right side of the bell curve.
is there a point where you hit a barrier and there is no more space, or does it go on forever?
10 Oct 07
Originally posted by sonhouseYou missed a half of the definition - of or relating to god, spirits or the devil. Not sure where dark matter fits into that.
Ok, point taken about hypothesis. However, 'dark matter' fits precisely with definition # 1. It can't be observed in our visible universe. We only see its effects, and even that is called to question, if other hypotheses are true, like small mods to newonian gravity.
So untill that is worked out, it is very much a supernatural phenomena.
10 Oct 07
Originally posted by sonhouseVery interesting post. I rec'd it for more to read.
It does not go on forever, but if you think about traveling on a globe such as the earrth, you can drive a million miles, lets say there was a freeway all the way round earth on the equator, you could drive forever and not come to the end. The universe is like that but on a higher dimensional level, If you go in a straight line, at some distance point in ti ...[text shortened]... ions of such universe sized bubbles sticking out but maybe in other dimensions.
News at 11🙂
11 Oct 07
A few points of clarification: when astronomers and cosmologists say that the universe is expanding, what they mean is that all the pieces observable, physical stuff in the universe - stars, galaxies, nebulas etc. - are getting further and further apart. They do not mean that space itself - the physical plane on which all those pieces of cosmic matter exist - is actually getting bigger.
There does seem to be a point in the universe where all those stars and galaxies and things just sort of stop. That doesn't mean that, if you could fly a spaceship out to that point, you'd hit a brick wall and that you wouldn't be able to go any further. You'd fly out into total emptiness - no more stars or asteroids or other scenery, no roadsigns or markers at all. And that's the real problem: truly empty space, by definition, does not exist. Or, it exists only as an absence of stuff. We can measure empty space only as the distance between two other points, and we can only know those points exist if some physical object is there to mark them. Since there's nothing we can see to mark the way beyond the point where the stars stop, we can't really say that the space out there actually exists. If we DID fly a spaceship out into that void, we'd only be able to say that the space behind us exists, and only because we could measure it as the distance between ourselves and the rest of the universe.
11 Oct 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadThis is actually an illustrative point, though; we assign the label of "supernatural" only to those things we don't currently understand. It does not represent any intrinsic quality of those things; only the degree to which we do or don't understand them.
From webster
Supernatural
1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)
Qui ...[text shortened]... ok up "theory" before you use it so carelessly. 'Hypothesis' would suit your meaning better.
In the final analysis, the 'supernatural' is a meaningless concept. If something exists, it does so within the framework of the natural universe, even if we don't currently know how, or even if we don't understand where the borders of that framework actually lie. That doesn't necessarily mean that God, and heaven and hell, don't exist. Or that ghosts and werewolves and superheroes don't exist. It just means that if they do, they simply represent aspects of the natural universe we don't currently understand. We didn't understand continental drift a thousand years ago, but that doesn't mean it was ever supernatural.
'Supernatural,' then, is a hazy, shorthand category; we use it to refer to those phenomena which may or may not be real and which appear fanciful. It's useful for communicating that idea, but not very meaningful ultimately.
11 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by shavixmirI... don't think your treatment of dimensional space here is right. At all.
1. Space is in the 5th dimension (the 4th being time) to the 3rd dimension as the 3rd dimension is the 2nd.
This means: In the second (or "on" as the case would be) dimension you can move left and right infinitely, but as you have a third dimension, moving left ultimately brings you back to the beginning, but from the right hand side.
Take a flat piece ce" is the same. But instead of moving left, right, up or down, you can also move "away".
Time is not the fourth dimension in any current model of physics; it's certainly not a spatial dimension, and does not belong in the same category as the three dimensions we can percieve. Those three dimensions - graphed along x, y, and z axes, as in algebra - represent what we refer to as physical space. Space is those first three dimensions, together; it is not a fifth unto itself. Modern physics does theorize about further spatial dimensions beyond the three, sometimes up to 11, but those are inverted upon themselves and inaccessible to us experientially - and also very small. In terms of those other dimensions, the whole universe is understood to be subatomic in size.
We actually don't have a good working theory of time. It may be nothing more than a standard of measurement we've invented to cateogorize the order in which things happen; It may be that for things to happen in a certain order, instead of all at once, is simply one of the irreducible qualities of the universe.
11 Oct 07
Originally posted by sonhousethere is not scientific proof to support this, it is only a theory
[b]It does not go on forever, but if you think about traveling on a globe such as the earrth, you can drive a million miles, lets say there was a freeway all the way round earth on the equator, you could drive forever and not come to the end. The universe is like that but on a higher dimensional level, If you go in a straight line, at some distance point in ti ...[text shortened]... going very very close to the speed of light, you would see you came back to the same place you left.
11 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by eatmybishopThat would be a hypothesis. A theory, in science, is a model that IS substantiated by experimental evidence. All theories are provisional; they're never "proven" (though they can always be "disproven" ). Theory is as close to truth as science ever gets, because scientists always have to be able to question their findings; that's what makes them so strong. But the fact that something is a theory in science doesn't mean it's really in doubt.
there is not scientific proof to support this, it is only a theory
11 Oct 07
Originally posted by DoctorScribbles1/(i*i)?
It's so big that if for each of i=1, 2, ..., n light years you travel in one direction you would gain 1/(i*i) IQ points, you could travel forever and never get to the right side of the bell curve.
You will never even get 2 points this way.
11 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by darthmixObviously you are wrong.
Time is not the fourth dimension in any current model of physics; it's certainly not a spatial dimension, and does not belong in the same category as the three dimensions we can percieve. Those three dimensions - graphed along x, y, and z axes, as in algebra -
If we were to meet up in Victoria station:
x, y and z (so say: Third floor, 10 meters from the McDonalds and 30 meters from the hot soup stand) but you appeared at 10 o'clock and I appeared the next day at 12 o'clock...
See. Time has to be an added dimension.