The Void of nothing

Originally posted by dj2becker
But the universe existed before time did or did the two just pop into being from nothing before time started?

Time is a property of the universe. They did not 'pop' into existence from nothing and it is meaningless to talk about 'before time'

Originally posted by twhitehead
Time is a property of the universe. They did not 'pop' into existence from nothing and it is meaningless to talk about 'before time'

So what brought the universe into existence? (My question is not time bound)

Originally posted by dj2becker
So what brought the universe into existence? (My question is not time bound)

I am afraid that your question is time bound. 'Brought' is a time dependent concept.
The best answer I can give based on my best guess at what you could possibly mean would be:
The universe exists. We don't know why or if there is a why. I don't even think that 'why' is a meaningful concept in this instance either but its the best I can do.

Originally posted by dj2becker
So what brought the universe into existence? (My question is not time bound)

That's all you have .. questions without answers.

You tell us .. what brought the universe into existence?

You try to trap everyone into stating their opinions so you can attempt to knock them down, but state no opinion of your own.
That's the intellectually dishonest part BTW.

You're trolling .. period.
You chant your mantra .. absolute truth exists.
No chit Cherlock, you mean all circles are ABSOLUTELY round?

We know that dipso .. now tell us what you've discovered beyond this abstract concept.

Originally posted by jammer
That's all you have .. questions without answers.

You tell us .. what brought the universe into existence?

You try to trap everyone into stating their opinions so you can attempt to knock them down, but state no opinion of your own.
That's the intellectually dishonest part BTW.

You're trolling .. period.
You chant your mantra .. absolute truth exis ...[text shortened]... d?

We know that dipso .. now tell us what you've discovered beyond this abstract concept.

You must be new here...

Everyone knows what I believe. 😉

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am afraid that your question is time bound. 'Brought' is a time dependent concept.
The best answer I can give based on my best guess at what you could possibly mean would be:
The universe exists. We don't know why or if there is a why. I don't even think that 'why' is a meaningful concept in this instance either but its the best I can do.

But if the universe has a beginnig, as you state, it means it must have been braught into being. Your life has a beginning, something brought you into being, believe it or not.

Originally posted by dj2becker
But if the universe has a beginnig, as you state, it means it must have been braught into being. Your life has a beginning, something brought you into being, believe it or not.

Giving an example does not prove a generality. Having a beginning does not mean that something must have been brought into being. Do you have any logic or evidence to back up your claim or is it just a belief? I hope you don't just stop the discussion when you realize that you are wrong like you did in the other thread.

Originally posted by dj2becker
You must be new here...

Everyone knows what I believe. 😉

Still won't say eh? ashamed? embarrassed?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Giving an example does not prove a generality. Having a beginning does not mean that something must have been brought into being. Do you have any logic or evidence to back up your claim or is it just a belief? I hope you don't just stop the discussion when you realize that you are wrong like you did in the other thread.

Would you care to give me ONE example from reality of something that has a beginning that was NOT brought into being?

I can give you millions of examples from reality that have a beginning that were brought into being.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Would you care to give me ONE example from reality of something that has a beginning that was NOT brought into being?

I can give you millions of examples from reality that have a beginning that were brought into being.

Your countless examples may show that it is highly likely that the rule does apply within the universe. That does not prove it.

It does not indicate in any way whether or not it applies to the universe itself.

Now for my example. Throughout all space/time there are particles which 'pop' into and out of existence. To my knowledge they are not 'brought into being'.

Of course we cannot proceed without further analyzing and defining what we mean by 'brought into being'.
The energy of the universe is constantly moving and changing and reconfiguring itself according to the laws of physics. So at any given time a place in the universe the particular configuration of matter has just been 'brought into being' from a previous state. This effect is what we know as time. So can the concept have meaning independent of time? I don't think so.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Your countless examples may show that it is highly likely that the rule does apply within the universe. That does not prove it.

It does not indicate in any way whether or not it applies to the universe itself.

Now for my example. Throughout all space/time there are particles which 'pop' into and out of existence. To my knowledge they are not 'brough ...[text shortened]... we know as time. So can the concept have meaning independent of time? I don't think so.

Your countless examples may show that it is highly likely that the rule does apply within the universe. That does not prove it.

My countless examples are all within reality. Do you mean to say that the universe is not a part of reality?

Throughout all space/time there are particles which 'pop' into and out of existence. To my knowledge they are not 'brought into being'.

You might want to be a little more specific. How do you know that they are not brought into existence?

Let me try and narrow this down a bit: You have two choices:

Either

The universe has existed for all eternity

Or

The universe has not existed for all eternity existed.

Which is it?

Originally posted by dj2becker
But if the universe has a beginnig, as you state, it means it must have been braught into being.

You are asking a time-dependent question. That is not appropriate here. Cause and effect need time - there was none, therefore cause and effect are not appropriate.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You are asking a time-dependent question. That is not appropriate here. Cause and effect need time - there was none, therefore cause and effect are not appropriate.

Either

1.The universe has existed for all eternity, has no beginning, and was not brought into being.

Or

2.The universe has not existed for all eternity, has a beginning, and was brought into being.

Which one is it?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Either

1.The universe has existed for all eternity, has no beginning, and was not brought into being.

Or

2.The universe has not existed for all eternity, has a beginning, and was brought into being.

Which one is it?

Neither.

Eternity is time dependant. Time is a property of the universe, not something external to it.

Originally posted by dj2becker
My countless examples are all within reality. Do you mean to say that the universe is not a part of reality?

I can give you countless examples of snake with no legs. That does not mean that all animal have no legs.
All your examples were within the universe. There is no indication that they apply to anything external to the universe or even to the universe itself.
As far as I know the universe is reality.


You might want to be a little more specific. How do you know that they are not brought into existence?
I do not know. All I know is that there is no evidence that they don't. Therefore we have an example of an entity that has not been shown to be 'brought into existence'.

Let me try and narrow this down a bit: You have two choices:
Either
The universe has existed for all eternity
Or
The universe has not existed for all eternity existed.
Which is it?
Please define eternity as it means different things to different people.