This forum is ruined

Originally posted by black beetle
Cool; now we need our greenpawn to evaluate the position
😵

One should not overcook prawns, they become difficult to eat...

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
I 'm a miserable atheist and I do not proclaim such a thing as “absolute truth”.
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You don't have to be self depravating black beetle.

And you should have had enough experience with Christain apologists by now to know that to this we might reply "Is it ...[text shortened]... of that ole CM with a bit of a twist
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Edit: “You don't have to be self depravating black beetle.”

Of course I can; there is no self😵



Edit: “And you should have… …self contradiction there.”

No contradiction; my (subjective) so called “absolute truth” is not your (subjective) so called “absolute truth”. In fact I am (subjectively, that is) sure there is no such a thing as “absolute truth”.



Edit: “I would not go along with your presupposition that "We have invented a creator". In fact maybe you have "invented" the absence of a creator”.

I invented nothing but specific epistemic instruments that ease me to observe specific epistemic objects. These tools are perception, inference, recognition of likeness and testimony -all evaluated according to our scientific finds and evidence;



Edit: “I don't think your problem is garuanteed to be addressed simply by giving you that information, if I did know.”

I have no problem. Furthermore, if you don’t know, how do you know?




Edit: “What can I do if you simply and firmly just don't like the idea of there being God?”

Why you think I just don’t like the idea of there being God? I do like the idea because I would take in it a refuge; unfortunately, whenever I examine this idea I evaluate it as just another invention, as a product of theoplacia.
So what can you do? Methinks you could acknowledge that your personal religious beliefs are based on your blind belief that the so called “creator” is existent. You could also acknowledge that you believe blindly that your religious doctrine is the so called “absolute truth”. Then I would bow to you and I would urge you to honour your spiritual teachers and to live according to their teaching a life full of love along with the ones you love
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
So what can you do? Methinks you could acknowledge that your personal religious beliefs are based on your blind belief that the so called “creator” is existent. You could also acknowledge that you believe blindly that your religious doctrine is the so called “absolute truth”. Then I would bow to you and I would urge you to honour your spiritual teachers and to live according to their teaching a life full of love along with the ones you love
😵

This is the essence of Faith.

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is the essence of Faith.

Of course, Dear Lady. And everyone is free to enjoy the essense of her/ his Faith in full. But this does not mean that one is justified when s/he is keeping up preaching that ones' blind faith is the so called "absloute truth", I reckon
😵

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is the essence of Faith.

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Edit: “You don't have to be self depravating black beetle.”

Of course I can; there is no self
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Whoever "I" is, you do not have to discribe him as a miserable atheist. That's what I mean. But if "you" insist, I guess it is ok.


===========================
Edit: “And you should have… …self contradiction there.”

No contradiction; my (subjective) so called “absolute truth” is not your (subjective) so called “absolute truth”. In fact I am (subjectively, that is) sure there is no such a thing as “absolute truth”.
===================================

You made a statment that there is no such thing as truth. I took that to be objective and universal.

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Edit: “I would not go along with your presupposition that "We have invented a creator". In fact maybe you have "invented" the absence of a creator”.

I invented nothing but specific epistemic instruments that ease me to observe specific epistemic objects. These tools are perception, inference, recognition of likeness and testimony -all evaluated according to our scientific finds and evidence;
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You might be losing me here. In one sentence you talk about "no such thing as absolute truth" being a subjective truth and the next thought is about science and the recognition of epistemic objects.

I don't know how you are thinking about this.

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Edit: “I don't think your problem is garuanteed to be addressed simply by giving you that information, if I did know.”

I have no problem. Furthermore, if you don’t know, how do you know?
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I think you have a problem with the whole idea of there being a God. I think that that is your thought. And around that thought you have erected some reasoning to protect that thought.

And I think much of that thought of atheism is emotional more than intellectual. I think you dislike the idea of there being God, full stop.

I believe you accompany your dislike for the concept of there being God with some reasoning, mostly for some intertainment.

But I could be mistaken. But I recall setting my will power to not WANTING to know about God. I also distinctly remembering assuming that people who did believe in God could not see clearly why they did. But I could see better why they did.

I remember this kind of confidence.

There is something else I remember. If anyone asked me what were the obstacles keeping me from knowing God, the last thing I would think of were my sins.

The obstacle within me to substanciating God was mostly in my conscience. Sometime after this realization came to me I also noticed this passage which confirmed my experience:

"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.

But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God. And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." (Isaiah 59:1,2)

The day God became a tastable and touchable reality to me was the day I came to the realization that my sins had made a separation between me and God.

When that moment came, that the obstacle in the way was nothing but my sins, I also found forgiveness and there was no problem to my enjoying the reality of God.

There was a two way justification on that day. It was really hard to know which came first. In very close proximity with each other, maybe simultaneously, two things happened:

I justified God. I agreed that God was right. I had sinned. And God justified me. God put it into my innermost being that because I agreed with Him He justified me in the name of Jesus Christ.

I justified God and God justified me.

The obstacle, the insulation that kept God from becomming real to me was just my sins and my sinning. That had not occured to me for the longest time. I thought the obstacle keeping me from knowing God was everything else but my sins.

It wasn't that I didn't know enough about biology, cosmology, Roman history, Jewish culture, church history. It was nothing that interesting. The barrier was my boring old sins. They were keeping me from experiencing God.

In Jesus' death and resurrection, God made adaquate and full provision for that obstacle.

If there had been no provision made for the problem then I would have counted God as not good. I am stuck with a problem with no solution. As it stands there was a solution provided before I was born.

What separates you from knowing God .... is what you did. Your sins have made a separation between you and God. Provision has been made for this terrible obstacle even before you were born, on Calvary's cross, in the Son of God.

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Edit: “What can I do if you simply and firmly just don't like the idea of there being God?”

Why you think I just don’t like the idea of there being God? I do like the idea because I would take in it a refuge; unfortunately, whenever I examine this idea I evaluate it as just another invention, as a product of theoplacia.
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Man will seek some kind of refuge in one thing or another.
If you desire to be without any refuge, I don't think you would be interested in science or philosophy.

Technology is constantly seeking to furnish the human race with refuge.
What is wrong with having God as a refuge ?
What is wrong with taking refuge in the love of God ?

I believe that God is absolutely righteous. He is no respector of persons. And the Bible says that "judgment is according to truth" .

Sure, if judgment is according to truth, then a refuge of the redemptive work of the Son of God I accept.

If God says He loves me but He will not give up His righteousness for anything and because of this, even in love He must judge my sins ... then a refuge of Christ's redemptive death on my behalf, I do not despise.

I need a refuge in His transformation work in my soul. That is because God doesn't change. And if I am to spend eternity with God, and God doesn't change, then I need to be changed.

The process of sanctification, salvation, conformation into the image of Christ, is a refuge of change to not only prepare me for eternity, but also to me to develop into that which God had created me for anyway, before the fall of man.


=======================
So what can you do? Methinks you could acknowledge that your personal religious beliefs are based on your blind belief that the so called “creator” is existent.
==============================

I can believe that there is a Creator. But still have no fellowship with God.

To me the destination is not simply acknowledging some objective information that there is a Creator. The intimate fellowship I have with my Heaveny Father did not in my case commence with me understanding that there must be a Creator.

That may be a good start to understand there is an Ultimate Governor or reigning Life behind all being and existence.

However, the day I could say "My Father. I know You, my Father" came in connection with me calling on the name of Jesus. And it came with me finally agreeing that my sins had made a separation between me and God. And the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was the loving provision God made for that delimma, even before I was born.
I just agreed with God. I justified Him, saying "You'er RIGHT about me." And God made me right instantly, and justified me as if I had NEVER sinned. It is amazing.

No one concocted this from thier imagination.

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You could also acknowledge that you believe blindly that your religious doctrine is the so called “absolute truth”. Then I would bow to you and I would urge you to honour your spiritual teachers and to live according to their teaching a life full of love along with the ones you love
==============================

I do not know what people mean by "blind faith". With Jesus there is quite a bit of confirming evidence that one is on the right track to confess Him as their Lord.

I think the outsider to experiencing Jesus, looks at this and decides that this must be some kind of "blind faith" going on.

To the inexperienced, to the outsider, it looks to them like "blind faith". So naturally, you ask "Why don't you just admit it? Admit your blind faith, why don't you.?"

To the one who receives the Holy Spirit, he cannot agree that this experience is due to "blind faith". It is our faith PLUS the FAITHFULNESS of God.

And throughout the Bible God has a very good track record on being faithful.

Originally posted by black beetle
Of course, Dear Lady. And everyone is free to enjoy the essense of her/ his Faith in full. But this does not mean that one is justified when s/he is keeping up preaching that ones' blind faith is the so called "absloute truth", I reckon
😵

But like jaywill said, those who have a Faith do not do so blindly. They know what they are doing, what they are "getting into", and with the Faith comes certainty that it is indeed correct. It is Truth to them. Perhaps the first "true truth" they've ever experienced.

I can have faith in the fact that men have walked on the moon. But I do not know it to be true. I wasn't there. I can "feel" that it is true, or "believe" that it is true, but it is still not the same as knowing one's Faith in God and Salvation is Truth.

Originally posted by Suzianne
But like jaywill said, those who have a Faith do not do so blindly. They know what they are doing, what they are "getting into", and with the Faith comes certainty that it is indeed correct. It is Truth to them. Perhaps the first "true truth" they've ever experienced.

I can have faith in the fact that men have walked on the moon. But I do not know it ...[text shortened]... e, but it is still not the same as knowing one's Faith in God and Salvation is Truth.

Charlie Manson couldn't have said it any better. 🙄

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================
Edit: “You don't have to be self depravating black beetle.”

Of course I can; there is no self
===============================

Whoever "I" is, you do not have to discribe him as a miserable atheist. That's what I mean. But if "you" insist, I guess it is ok.


===========================
Edit: “An ...[text shortened]... God has a very good track record on being faithful.

Edit: “Whoever "I" is, you do not have to discribe him as a miserable atheist. That's what I mean. But if "you" insist, I guess it is ok.”

In our tradition we use to compete each other just for fun, my jaywill. Here you are:
One day master Jhu and his student, Yuen Whang, walking during a rest time, they decided to compete in order to see which one of them could put himself in an inferior position.
-- “I ‘m a donkey”, said the master.
-- “I ‘m a donkey’s @r$e”, said the student.
-- “I ’m a donkey’s $hit”, said the master.
-- “I ‘m a maggot on the donkey$hit”, said the student.
-- “And wtf are you doing on there?” asked the master.
-- “I enjoy my vacations”, said the student and won the contest;



Edit: “You made a statment that there is no such thing as truth. I took that to be objective and universal.”

No. Truth is empty, thus subjective, thus it lacks of inherent being because it is mind-dependent. Every truth has the shape of one’s mind. All truths can be either false or accurate according to the evaluation of the mind;



Edit: “You might be losing… …about this.”

I clarify that over here the mind-dependence regarding the solid scientific facts and evidence does not refer to dependence on any individual mind, but to the collective dependence on all the minds that are evaluated according to our current scientific facts and evidence;



Edit: “I think you have a problem… …in the Son of God.”

I am thankful for your time and your interpretation; however in my case the main obstacle is that I see no reason why I should take the necessary leap of faith. On the other hand, I do not recognize sins in front of the so called creator; I recognize merely crimes against the sentient beings, against the environment, against individuals, against society, against humanity and against Life;



Edit: “Man will seek… …before the fall of man.

I take no refuge because any refuge is mind-dependent. I ‘m a wave in the ocean so I need no refuge; I have my auspicious palace in the water but all you can see is a wave🙂



Edit: “I can believe that… …from thier imagination.

How and by which means did you came to understand in person and thus to know in person that no one “…concocted this from their imagination”?



Edit: “I do not know what people mean.. …being faithful.

Surely you can confess Jesus as your Lord, however I fail to recognize Jesus as an epistemic object. Also, you are unable to bring up specific epistemic tools that would ease me to access Jesus. Therefore, since I am not willing to take a leap of faith for the time being, I cannot be a Christian;
😵

Originally posted by Suzianne
But like jaywill said, those who have a Faith do not do so blindly. They know what they are doing, what they are "getting into", and with the Faith comes certainty that it is indeed correct. It is Truth to them. Perhaps the first "true truth" they've ever experienced.

I can have faith in the fact that men have walked on the moon. But I do not know it ...[text shortened]... e, but it is still not the same as knowing one's Faith in God and Salvation is Truth.

Since their epistemic object is Jesus, they should provide specific epistemic tools that ease our access to Jesus. Once they don't have no epistemic instruments, their core belief is based blindly on faith
😵

Originally posted by KellyJay
So start writting things worth reading and debating no one is forcing you to
read their posts or answer them when they write.
Kelly

It is of course your easy choice to take an aloof position and not sully your hands with the filthy business of demanding some kind of forum order; and in so doing to allow others to speak out and risk your meek disdain.

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: “Whoever "I" is, you do not have to discribe him as a miserable atheist. That's what I mean. But if "you" insist, I guess it is ok.”

In our tradition we use to compete each other just for fun, my jaywill. Here you are:
One day master Jhu and his student, Yuen Whang, walking during a rest time, they decided to compete in order to see which one ...[text shortened]... I am not willing to take a leap of faith for the time being, I cannot be a Christian;
😵

You spoke about crimes against "Life" with a capital L.

Please tell me what you mean by "Life" with a capital L.

Originally posted by Agerg
Ah well...to give a running score so far it's 10 posters definitely taking divegeester's side:
divegeester, Rwingwett, John W Booth, Agerg, BBarr, Josephw, FreakyKBH, Hand of Hecate, Zahlanzi, Avelanchethecat
6 taking an opposing side:
Tacoandlettuce, Ua41, ThinkofOne, Robbie Carrobie, Jaywill, Kellyjay

and 7 I cannot yet assign a side.

Go geester go!!! 😵

I never indicated any side so I don't see how I can be opposing. I disagree with dive's methods of calling these guys out because it's essentially on the same level as them, doesn't mean I'm opposing.

Originally posted by ua41
I never indicated any side so I don't see how I can be opposing.

The following post is clearly in opposition to divegeester:

"Really? Two new threads to call them out on?
I understand your anger, but this is just as annoying. I think the three of you should work on something nice to contribute to the spirituality forum."