26 Jun 21
If you desire something enough, and keep thinking about it, that is when you are most likely to tread the path to doing something about it to get it.
Put it out of your mind (sometimes easier said than done) you have less chance of acting on those thought.
Philokalia's example about somebody with a rape of pedophile fantasy uncovers another channel. I love the friends that I have and would never consider doing them any harm or act of treachery against them. Somebody dwelling on this kind of thing seems to me like an accident waiting to happen.
28 Jun 21
@fmf saidObviously, morality governs neither deeds or thoughts necessarily, as people do what they want, but I understand we all make errors when we are writing. I am sure you would do the favor of pointing this out to me if I was the one who did it.
I think talking about raping a woman to someone else would be immoral. Morality governs deeds not thoughts, to my way of thinking.
...
But you are not proving your point. You are just stating it.
28 Jun 21
@philokalia saidMy moral compass governs my behaviour. The same goes for you. Shared moral values in the societies where we live help to shape the moral compasses that we use to govern ourselves. The fact that some people just do what they want and act in immoral ways, by my standards, or your standards, or more broadly by society's standards, does not negate what I am saying.
Obviously, morality governs neither deeds or thoughts necessarily, as people do what they want, but I understand we all make errors when we are writing.
28 Jun 21
@philokalia saidIt's a very subjective area. It's not as if I am claiming that you will be burned alive ~ or will deserve to be ~ for not sharing my belief. So, don't worry too much about whether I have proved my point or not to your satisfaction. If you don't believe that, for acts to be immoral, they need to have victims, so be it.
But you are not proving your point. You are just stating it.
28 Jun 21
@fmf saidIn the sense of Fr. Seraphim Rose talking about nihilism as it behaves as pragmatic utilitarianism; there is no truth, so we just navigate based off of the most rudimentary calculations that we can make, not leaning on any principles much, and certainly not propping up virtues and vices.
Nihilistic?
28 Jun 21
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@philokalia saidOur moral compasses are the product of nature and nurture ~ constantly being assessed, solidified or modified by experience and narratives.
In the sense of Fr. Seraphim Rose talking about nihilism as it behaves as pragmatic utilitarianism; there is no truth, so we just navigate based off of the most rudimentary calculations that we can make, not leaning on any principles much, and certainly not propping up virtues and vices.
The moral compasses' existence is as good a piece of evidence that we are created beings as theists have. This might be a better way for you to go ~ the notion of the implanting of conscience ~ because quoting Fr. Seraphim Rose on "nihilism" ~ doesn't work for me.
Whoever he is, and regardless of the fact you agree with him, he can declare his own subjective moral calculations as being based on some version of the "truth" - that needs to replace my perception of what is right or wrong - until he is blue in the face, assuming he's still alive.
His religious beliefs come under the title "nurture" and/or "experience and narrative".
28 Jun 21
@fmf saidThere is such a thing as an innocent thought that appears immoral... for instance, if we saw a car that was unlocked with the keys in the inition, and the driver is nowhere to be seen, we would think for a moment, "I could just steal this car!"
Morality governs the treading of the path and not the thinking about it, I'd say.
That is not an immoral thought... it's almost an observation.
Indeed, we cannot really avoid anger and sexual urges, but someone who actively enjoys & ventures into these kinds of thoughts is having immoral thoughts.
If someone said that, every time they see a black person, they think racial slurs, and imagine what they could do to get that person out of their sight, you'd surely see that as an immoral series of thoughts.
But what can I say.
There's no way to appeal to a materialist who likely has a very narrow definition of morality anyways.
28 Jun 21
@philokalia saidNo, I wouldn't. Have you not been reading what I've been saying?
If someone said that, every time they see a black person, they think racial slurs, and imagine what they could do to get that person out of their sight, you'd surely see that as an immoral series of thoughts.
28 Jun 21
@philokalia saidIf your definition of morality, now that you have recently joined the Orthodox Catholic Church, is suddenly the same as what is defined by the Orthodox Catholic Church, how does that make your definition less narrow than mine?
There's no way to appeal to a materialist who likely has a very narrow definition of morality anyways.
28 Jun 21
@philokalia saidBy "actively enjoys & ventures", do you mean taking action?
Indeed, we cannot really avoid anger and sexual urges, but someone who actively enjoys & ventures into these kinds of thoughts is having immoral thoughts.
28 Jun 21
@fmf saidYour error is in thinking that I believe you perfectly resolve your theories with your actual humanity.
No, I wouldn't. Have you not been reading what I've been saying?
Most people suffer from some degree of hypocrisy, after all.
28 Jun 21
@fmf saidYour problem here is with how narrow is being used. You misread the context.
If your definition of morality, now that you have recently joined the Orthodox Catholic Church, is suddenly the same as what is defined by the Orthodox Catholic Church, how does that make your definition less narrow than mine?
Any religion, no matter how dogmatic, will have a very broad view of morality -- morality is applicable to all kinds of things, and is usually universal.
Atheist materialists consider few things immoral. Some, perhaps, even consider nothing immoral, and consider morality to be completely a construct.
28 Jun 21
@fmf saidI consider thought a type of action.
By "actively enjoys & ventures", do you mean taking action?