06 Mar 08
Originally posted by PsychoPawnIf god knows what you will choose then you have no choice, it doesn't matter whether it's Hitler, Stalin, you or me.
If god knows what you will choose then you have no choice, it doesn't matter whether it's Hitler, Stalin, you or me.
If your decision is known before you make it then your decision isn't truly determined by you - it's determined by god and hence you don't have free will, you only have the illusion of free will in your mind.
[i]You know Hitler's fut ...[text shortened]... If he decided something other than what I knew, then I didn't actually know his choices.
If your decision is known before you make it then your decision isn't truly determined by you ---------PSYCHOPAWN
RESPONSE------
Yes , yes , so you keep saying but where's your proof? You know what Hitler has chosen to do in 1945 but does that prove that what he chose was determined? All you know is that he made a choice (determined or otherwise). You know his future . How does that prove he had no free will?
06 Mar 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterI'll respond more in full later, but you're building a couple strawmen arguments in there and I don't have the time right now to go into it.
If god knows what you will choose then you have no choice, it doesn't matter whether it's Hitler, Stalin, you or me.
If your decision is known before you make it then your decision isn't truly determined by you ---------PSYCHOPAWN
RESPONSE------
Yes , yes , so you keep saying but where's your proof? You know what Hitler has chosen to do in 19 ...[text shortened]... ce (determined or otherwise). You know his future . How does that prove he had no free will?
I will say this, I do NOT think that me, or other humans, knowing (there's no way for humans to know any future actions at 100😵 what someone will do in the future (i.e. not what hitler has chosen to do- which is in the past) proves that people don't have free will. This is something you seem to think that I have claimed - I have not.
More later.
07 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by PsychoPawnIt's far from a strawman , do not underestimate the depth to which I have contemplated this , please . I'm simply pointing out that it's possible for you to know Hitler's future choices without it neccesitating that those choices are determined. For all you know Hitler may have had free will . Now you may dispute this but you also cannot prove that his choices were determined simply by the fact that you know what those choices are. You knowing Hitler's future proves only one thing , that you know his future. But you can only know that future because in a series of present moments he actually made those choices. If he does not make those choices you cannot know them. Hitler's future is your past , what you choose tomorrow is long gone history for someone in the 24th century. It's all relative.
I'll respond more in full later, but you're building a couple strawmen arguments in there and I don't have the time right now to go into it.
I will say this, I do NOT think that me, or other humans, knowing (there's no way for humans to know any future actions at 100😵 what someone will do in the future (i.e. not what hitler has chosen to do- which is will. This is something you seem to think that I have claimed - I have not.
More later.
Similarly its possible that God knows in eternity what all our life choices have been but right now in our timeline we have yet to set our future in place.
It's because we tend to still think of time in a Newtonian way as constant throughout everything but Einstein showed that time is relative. This makes things interesting and leads to some questions like- does the future actualy exist until we get there? Is living on a timeline like following a train track or is it more like forming a track in the sand with a jeep? Does only our "now" exist or is time like a series of "nows" unfolding?
The way I see it is that it's not possible to be conclusive about all this so this is why I challenge the idea that God knowing our future choices MUST mean we can't have free will. If we don't really understand the nature of time then how can an atheist be so catagorical?
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterDon't take this the wrong way, but I don't care how "deep" you've contemplated this. That doesn't change what you are saying, nor does it add any meaning to what you're saying.
It's far from a strawman , do not underestimate the depth to which I have contemplated this , please . I'm simply pointing out that it's possible for you to know Hitler's future choices without it neccesitating that those choices are determined. For all you know Hitler may have had free will . Now you may dispute this but you also cannot prove that his ...[text shortened]... t really understand the nature of time then how can an atheist be so catagorical?
I also think the example of Hitler is a very contrived and poor example. Hitler is dead so has no future choices so let's move onto something that is easier to talk about in the present so the whole past tense, future tense and present don't get confused.
No one exists in the 24th century since the 24th century doesn't exist.
How can a god know what's not set if it is not set? Explain that.
The problem is the contradiction between god being infallible and knowing what you will be doing.
If god knows what you will do tomorrow AND god is infallible then god must be right about what you are going to do.
If you have free will then you must be able to do something other than what god KNOWS you are going to do.
BUT if you do something other than what god "knew" you would do then god is not infallible.
Therefore, in order for god to be infallible AND know the future, you can't have any real choice in what you are going to do.
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadWell if we go according to the Bible god then the answer is "Yes." Take the exodus of the Israelites for example. God knows that without intervention Pharoah will release the Israelites before the 10th plague; however, God apparently really wants to kill some Egyptian babies so he "hardens Pharoah's heart" to prevent him from conceding.
In various threads I have discussions with knightmeister and others about the implications of God 'knowing' the future and whether that constitutes determinism or time travel etc and whether or not it tells us something significant about the nature (laws) of our universe.
In the Noahs Ark thread, Kelly has suggested that land animals were originally cre ...[text shortened]... hange, so once God created his vegetarian carnivores, the future sins of man were inevitable.
Putting the Bible aside, I wonder how one would distinguish between the following two scenarios.
1) Before the Fall, God made vegan lions with sharp teeth; powerful, fast bodies, razor-like claws, a flexible skeleton, and an explosive musculature so that they would be well-designed for a carnivorous diet later.
2) After the Fall, God designed meat consumption so that it would conform well with the design of the previously vegan lions.
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterThat's right. Which is why God should have acted upon his perfect foresight and only created beings that he knew would use their free will to choose him.
It's far from a strawman , do not underestimate the depth to which I have contemplated this , please . I'm simply pointing out that it's possible for you to know Hitler's future choices without it neccesitating that those choices are determined. For all you know Hitler may have had free will . Now you may dispute this but you also cannot prove that his ...[text shortened]... t really understand the nature of time then how can an atheist be so catagorical?
07 Mar 08
The answers I've gotten from ministers over the years concerning the "free-will vs. omniscient God" question have been the same as understanding the Triune God, wondering why God allowed evil into the world, and where Cain got his wife: our puny human minds can't grok it, and all will be clear when we get to heaven.
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by twhitehead"Since God knows the future, does he ever do things specifically because of a planned future outcome as in the pre-planned carnivores example above?"
In various threads I have discussions with knightmeister and others about the implications of God 'knowing' the future and whether that constitutes determinism or time travel etc and whether or not it tells us something significant about the nature (laws) of our universe.
In the Noahs Ark thread, Kelly has suggested that land animals were originally cre ...[text shortened]... hange, so once God created his vegetarian carnivores, the future sins of man were inevitable.
Only God knows.
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by josephwI'm with you there JW.
"Since God knows the future, does he ever do things specifically because of a planned future outcome as in the pre-planned carnivores example above?"
Only God knows.
These really are pointless threads.
We're talking about a supernatural being - anything is possible, nothing is provable.
What's the point of such discussions?
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by stokerNo, he hasn't. If I do not believe the scripture to be factual then it does not inform me. Do you consider yourself to have been warned by the Iliad? If you died and God said "but I told you what to do in the Iliad" would you accept that as fair warning?
To the first point . has not god told you by way of scripture.
The second point yes i belive god would change what would happen if we prayed and lived by his laws, and thier would be joy in heaven at that.
He did with the hebrews, tell them if they repented he would stay his hand against them.
So God not only knows the future, but all possible futures? Clearly he doesn't know it based on memories of what you will do (as suggested by knightmeister).
07 Mar 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterI dispute that. The fact that we know Hitlers choices means that within this timeline, his choices were determined. As for free will, that depends on your definition of free will. What I do not know is whether or not this is the only timeline.
It's far from a strawman , do not underestimate the depth to which I have contemplated this , please . I'm simply pointing out that it's possible for you to know Hitler's future choices without it neccesitating that those choices are determined. For all you know Hitler may have had free will .
08 Mar 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadYes ,yes , so you say but why? This is just a statement. If Hitler had had free will (eg he could have chosen not to kill himself) then how would things be different from what we know now. All we know is what he did choose.
I dispute that. The fact that we know Hitlers choices means that within this timeline, his choices were determined. As for free will, that depends on your definition of free will. What I do not know is whether or not this is the only timeline.
The point here is that if there were some free choices that took place in Hitler's life they would not be distinguishable from determined choices. We cannot know. If he made some free choices then we are bound to know what they are because that free choice would be known to us because of our relationship in time to Hitler. Just as determined choices would be known.
I fail to see how you can prove that hitler's choices MUST have been determined because we know them , because if they were free choices we would also know them. Please explain your proof and stop just stating your position as if stating it makes it true.
08 Mar 08
Originally posted by telerionHe does not have "perfect foresight" as you imagine. God can only see the future choices that Hitler makes. If Hitler does not exist and doesn't make those choices then he can't know because those choices will not be made.
That's right. Which is why God should have acted upon his perfect foresight and only created beings that he knew would use their free will to choose him.
Why does everyone keep imagining that God can "foresee" things as if he lives along our timeline. He does not "foresee" what you will choose tomorrow , he's just not restricted by time. Think about it , right now as you are reading this God is watching you and if you make a choice he will see that choice BUT he's also watching what choices you make in what you call "tomorrow" , except for him it's not tomorrow , he's already in tomorrow watching you.