To have faith or not to have faith - that is th...

Originally posted by Regicidal
Unintelligent design. That's right, unintelligent.
People have this notion that the beautiful, ordered design of the universe gives credence to the existence of a creator. Well, if there were a creator, then he's pretty unimpressive. There ain't nothin intelligent about stars and planets colliding, exploding, and moons expanding and leaving their orbits ...[text shortened]... eth that don't last, and even totally useless legacy organs.
Hence, no intelligent creator.

Hence the word fool.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
How about designer with average intelligence? Could we be the result of Mediocre Design?

At least you have some appreciation.

Originally posted by KnightWulfe
Non-believers argue that you cannot believe in something without hardcore proof of it.

I (an atheist) have never made any such argument. I would say that one should not believe something without reasonable evidence (I don't believe there is such a thing as hardcore proof). I do however think that people can and do believe things without much evidence at all but do so for various reasons including indoctrination, desire, ignorance etc.
Some beliefs are simply best guesses and people are willing to change them in light of new evidence. For example I don't believe that there is life on the moon, but I would change my mind if evidence showed otherwise. Other beliefs are held much more strongly and are held onto even in light of extensive evidence, those are the beliefs I try not to have and try to persuade others not to have.

Originally posted by KnightWulfe
I am not Christian. I am Atheist. I have studied many religions and philosophies over the years. Every single one comes down to having faith that what you believe is truth. Believers (of any religion) argue that you must have faith in the belief. Non-believers argue that you cannot believe in something without hardcore proof of it.

I am not looking to ...[text shortened]... h in a supreme being - what brought you to that choice? Was there an incident or series of them?

I would say that the overriding factor would be a personal experience of God's presence with me. The Bible says that "in him we live and move and have our being" and for me that has been a truth that does not go away. It's hard because you feel a bit like one of those psychics on TV sometimes and you wonder if your mind is playing trivks on you and yet in an incredible , subtle way this has been my experience. God to me is alive and a real presence. Take that away and I have nothing , with it I have everything. All the Atheist arguments in the world don't make it go away. To me it's like someone saying to me that rain does not exist when I can actually feel it falling on my face. People keep telling me that i'm stupid to believe in rain but there it is falling on my face. Of course I may be mad or deluded , but I also may not be. I have questioned this experience / sensation and it does hold up. God is nothing if he is not present. God is nothing if he is just an intellectual nod to a theory.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Exactly. I learned to read at the age of 2 or 3 from the Bible and as a family we read the Bible every night without fail for the next 16 yrs. My parents were Christadelphians who believed that only they were going to get salvation. It took me 20 years (age 18 go 38) to get that out of my system.

I was indoctrinated by Christadelphioans first and then by ...[text shortened]... our time
give your money
give your love
GIVE GIVE GIVE

Faith is a result of indoctrination

dare I suggest you still have some way to go? The journey is long, my friend...

Originally posted by knightmeister
I would say that the overriding factor would be a personal experience of God's presence with me. The Bible says that "in him we live and move and have our being" and for me that has been a truth that does not go away. It's hard because you feel a bit like one of those psychics on TV sometimes and you wonder if your mind is playing trivks on you and ye ...[text shortened]... thing if he is not present. God is nothing if he is just an intellectual nod to a theory.

And what do you say to the person who derives his worldview from his personal experience of the presence of Zeus?

Originally posted by GregM
And what do you say to the person who derives his worldview from his personal experience of the presence of Zeus?

Well...first of all, such a person will surely perish (Deut. 8:19-20). This is presumably because God has ordered his followers to kill him (Deut. 17:2-7). All the curses of the Bible (or is it just Deuteronomy?) will fall upon the Zeus worshipper (Deut. 29:18-20).

According to Joshua, God will "turn and do [him] hurt, and consume [him]" (24:19-20).

Jeremiah says this fellow is wicked (1:16). God especially gets angry if you make bread for Zeus (7:18). I wonder if he means bread made from a blood sacrifice? God will kill the Zeus' worshipper's children (16:10-11), apparently by making the fellow eat them himself (19:4, 7-9). He might enslave the poor fellow too (17:4).

I could go on all day, but it's more work than I'm willing to put forth.

Originally posted by GregM
And what do you say to the person who derives his worldview from his personal experience of the presence of Zeus?

I would ask him to verify his experience against Zeusian theology and show how his experience connected to other aspects of his life (eg moral decison making , peace of mind, well being ) . I would be interested in the solidity of his experience and whether he only had it when he was highly emotional or drunk.

I would not want him to derive his world view from it though. There would have to be more to it than that but if Zeus did claim to be really alive in the world then I would expect his expereince to tally with this otherwise his Zeusian faith would be a dead faith.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
dare I suggest you still have some way to go? The journey is long, my friend...

Some way to go .... until I become an atheist ?
Nah ... not me.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Well...first of all, such a person will surely perish (Deut. 8:19-20). This is presumably because God has ordered his followers to kill him (Deut. 17:2-7). All the curses of the Bible (or is it just Deuteronomy?) will fall upon the Zeus worshipper (Deut. 29:18-20).

According to Joshua, God will "turn and do [him] hurt, and consume [him]" (24:19-2 ...[text shortened]... ow too (17:4).

I could go on all day, but it's more work than I'm willing to put forth.

I could go on all day,........thousandyoung


...I don't doubt it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I could go on all day,........thousandyoung


...I don't doubt it.

It's your holy book, not mine.

I'm arguing from Scripture. Why aren't you?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I would ask him to verify his experience against Zeusian theology and show how his experience connected to other aspects of his life (eg moral decison making , peace of mind, well being ) . I would be interested in the solidity of his experience and whether he only had it when he was highly emotional or drunk.

I would not want him to derive his wor ...[text shortened]... ould expect his expereince to tally with this otherwise his Zeusian faith would be a dead faith.

If he passed all your tests would you then accept that his faith is a 'live' faith? Would you become Zeusian too or would you somehow reconcile the possibility that you are both right? Or would you never accept that he has passed the tests because it might imply that your faith is unfounded? Or do you simply not think about it because you don't believe it is possible?

Originally posted by twhitehead
If he passed all your tests would you then accept that his faith is a 'live' faith? Would you become Zeusian too or would you somehow reconcile the possibility that you are both right? Or would you never accept that he has passed the tests because it might imply that your faith is unfounded? Or do you simply not think about it because you don't believe it is possible?

I would have to consider the merits and validity of the experience on it's own merits and also consider the rationale behind Zeusian theology as well. If Zeus started to come "alive" then I would need to think about an explanation for that or also consider that there might be a larger truth that encompasses two superficially conflicting truths. It does seem unlikely that this would happen though since Greek mythology was superceded a long time ago by the eternal religions (Judaism / Hinduism etc) with a far more sophisticated view of spirituality. I generally do not consider it becasue it has not been suggested to me that I can have a personal living relationship with Zeus. Until it is suggested I shall put it on the back burner.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
It's your holy book, not mine.

I'm arguing from Scripture. Why aren't you?

Maybe becasue I prefer not to chop it up into thousands of separate incoherent pieces?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Maybe becasue I prefer not to chop it up into thousands of separate incoherent pieces?

Are you suggesting that he is taking pieces out of context or that parts of scripture are simply incoherent? If the former then are you able to take any of his verses and show us how when put in context it doesn't imply what he is claiming?