Spirituality
22 Oct 14
27 Oct 14
Originally posted by CalJustThat is their business, but I don't agree with it.
I agree with you on this. (With the exception that I would replace "heaven and hell" with "life after death"😉
However, would you dispute that many Christians on this forum, specifically sonship and RJH, regularly do just that? And tell us, on great authority who gets to go to hell?
28 Oct 14
Just for the sake of clarification, is there any disagreement among Christians here as to the existence of hell? Or does the disagreement primarily (exclusively?) have to do with whether suffering and torment will go on forever or not?
I'm asking for the sake of my own clarification, and not because the question is directly related to the OP.
28 Oct 14
2 edits
Originally posted by lemon limeHi lemon lime,
Just for the sake of clarification, is there any disagreement among Christians here as to the existence of hell? Or does the disagreement primarily (exclusively?) have to do with whether sufferingb and torment will go on forever or not?
I'm asking for the sake of my own clarification, and not because the question is directly related to the OP.
Speaking for myself, I believe that the very existence of hell as a place of eternal suffering and torment (and if it is not that, what then is it?) is untenable with the concept of a loving and caring God, which we see as a basic principle in numerous places of the Bible.
Granted, there ARE the "hellfire and brimstone" passages which RJH and sonship (in particulat, but others also) love to quote. My answer to that is that I do NOT believe that every word in the Bible is to be taken literally (e.g. the Flood, Creation, etc, which are poems and allegories) so it does not bother me that human authors have added embellishments to scare the heathen - and make the faithful feel vindicated, or whatever.
Logically, taking the Biblical message as a whole, the concept is jarring and indefensible on so many levels.
28 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by CalJustPassages in the Bible about hell aren't there for scaring the heathen, they are there for informing the believer.
Hi lemon lime,
Speaking for myself, I believe that the very existence of hell as a place of eternal suffering and torment (and if it is not that, what then is it?) is untenable with the concept of a loving and caring God, which we see as a basic principle in numerous places of the Bible.
Granted, there ARE the "hellfire and brimstone" passages which RJ ...[text shortened]... king the Biblical message as a whole, the concept is jarring and indefensible on so many levels.
One of my personal favorites is Mathew 10:28. If I fear a loving God then I have no reason to fear anyone (or anything) else. I know that many people are also offended by any mention of fear, but a healthy fear in this life is something that can keep us safe. Fear of running into a burning building, fear of jumping out of an airplane without a parachute, fear of playing with sharks or other dangerous animals, fear of traveling to another country without first learning of their laws and customs, etc. etc. So the way I look at it fearing God is the same kind of fear a child might feel if he disobeys a loving parent. It's a healthy fear that can keep a child from harming himself.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2010%3A28
28 Oct 14
1 edit
Originally posted by lemon limeI totally agree with your distinction between "bad" fear, and something like "reverence", or "respect", (like for a shark.)
Passages in the Bible about hell aren't there for scaring the heathen, they are there for informing the believer.
One of my personal favorites is Mathew 10:28. If I fear a loving God then I have no reason to fear anyone (or anything) else.
Actually, I have no interest in changing anybody's pov on any matter of faith. If you are comfortable with the doctine of hell, fine.
All I can say is that it was with a huge sigh of relief that I was able to jettison it without ever looking back. Just so much baggage that colours every encounter with every other human being - is this guy going to hell or not? Shouldn't I "witness" to him lest I make myself guilty of his eternal doom?
What a devastating outlook on life!
But, as I said, if you are comfortable with it, go in peace and be blessed...
28 Oct 14
Originally posted by whodeyI’ve mentioned this before many times, but of course you will simply ignore it once again: You yourself have absolutely no problems with “playing god” when it happens to be about something that you approve of. Then the argument of “playing god” goes out the window.
Trying to decide who goes to heaven or hell is playing God. Why then do Christians engage in it?
I realize why left winged atheists engage in it, even though they don't believe in a God. It is because they feel the need to fill the apparent vacancy and dictate every aspect of our lives to us.
And the notion that “left winged atheists” want to decide who goes to heaven and hell is of a level of absurdity that only a handful of people can come up with. Not to mention that it’s the people who are anti-abortion who are trying to impose their will on others, not the other way around. There’s a reason why it’s called “pro-choice”.
But logic and Whodey don’t go hand in hand, do they?
29 Oct 14
2 edits
Originally posted by CalJustI'm not comfortable with the doctrine of hell, never have been. And I definitely don't want to know who is going to hell and who isn't, because there are people I know and care about who might end up there. It distresses me to think about it, but the fact is I literally can not know who will have to suffer that fate or not... so I can at least take some comfort in not knowing, because it's not my call.
I totally agree with your distinction between "bad" fear, and something like "reverence", or "respect", (like for a shark.)
Actually, I have no interest in changing anybody's pov on any matter of faith. If you are comfortable with the doctine of hell, fine.
All I can say is that it was with a huge sigh of relief that I was able to jettison it without e ...[text shortened]... tlook on life!
But, as I said, if you are comfortable with it, go in peace and be blessed...
But if God cares about me and won't lie to me, and he says it's there, then why shouldn't I believe him? If I get into the habit of picking and choosing what I want to believe is true (or not true) then how am I any different than someone who falls into the habit of comforting himself with self serving lies? How can I know and be absolutely sure if hell is off the table or not?
Die before I'm old enough to be accountable for my actions? Nope, it's too late for that.
Hope that I'll simply cease to exist? There are denominations that apparently believe this, but then how do they deal with scripture that contracts this belief? Simple, they interpret those passages in a way that nullifies the meaning. But if I start doing that, then what is there to stop me from nullifying anything else? Maybe when Jesus died for my sins it wasn't really a payment for sin, maybe he was just setting an example for the rest of us to follow... maybe there really is no God, and no such thing as sin. Maybe nothing in the Bible should be taken literally, maybe it's just a story with some hidden meaning I should look for and can benefit from. Maybe aliens from outer space placed this book on earth to get us ready psychologically for when they finally decide to reveal themselves to us.
See what can happen once you start playing around with the idea that maybe God doesn't always tell the truth?
Originally posted by lemon limeGood point.
But if God cares about me and won't lie to me, and he says it's there, then why shouldn't I believe him? If I get into the habit of picking and choosing what I want to believe is true (or not true) then how am I any different than someone who falls into the habit of comforting himself with self serving lies? How can I know and be absolutely sure if hell is off the table or not?
However as you have stated that you do not accept the bible as evidence of what Christians believe about god/Christ; then on what basis do you personally feel that you should believe that hell exists?
29 Oct 14
Originally posted by divegeesterYou should put more effort into proving you aren't a sheep in wolves clothing.
Good point.
However as you have stated that you do not accept the bible as evidence of what Christians believe about god/Christ; then on what basis do you personally feel that you[b] should believe that hell exists?[/b]
What I said before and am saying again (for the 3rd or 4th time, I've lost count) is that the Bible is obviously evidence of Biblical doctrine. But if you base your faith on shallow reasoning and flimsy evidence then you can just as easily reject that 'faith'. Some people believe what the Bible says because the Bible says it, but then they will reject what the Bible says for the very same reason... their faith was never based on anything other than their own willingness to believe it. So as I said before, the Bible talks about God but the Bible is not God. The Bible did not convince me of Gods existence, God convinced me.
In your opinion where else should you go if you can't get into heaven? As you already know hell wasn't created for people, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible where God will say to those who reject his offer of salvation "Poof, I now pronounce you non-existent."
If you show up dripping in stinky sin then what would you like God to do with you? Do you think you can change his mind so that he won't do what he said he will do?
29 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeIf this is so, why then ~ when asked by divegeester "...as a Christian yourself, do you not accept the word of God (the Bible) as evidence to support the Christian gospel, doctrine and way of life?" ~ did you answer: "No, I don't. I didn't accept that before I believed in God and I still don't accept it"?
What I said before and am saying again (for the 3rd or 4th time, I've lost count) is that the Bible is obviously evidence of Biblical doctrine.
29 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFMathew 13 ESV
If this is so, why then ~ when asked by divegeester "...as a Christian yourself, do you not accept the word of God (the Bible) as evidence to support the Christian gospel, doctrine and way of life?" ~ did you answer: "No, I don't. I didn't accept that before I believed in God and I still don't accept it"?
A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. He who has ears, let him hear.
Then the disciples came and said to him, Why do you speak to them in parables? And he answered them, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.
29 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeAll your difficulties appear to stem from the fact that you are willing to adopt any contortion just so long as you do not have to retract a stance you took on the Bible that you obviously cannot defend because it is, let's face it, completely absurd. You'd rather just brazen it out and pretend you didn't say what you said. It has been interesting to witness.
Mathew 13 ESV
A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. Othe ...[text shortened]... yes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.
29 Oct 14
Originally posted by FMFYou have been interesting to watch as well, but I've gotten over my unhealthy fascination with how your mind works. So now I'm thinking if quoting scripture worked for Jesus to get Satan off his back, then maybe it will work for me too.
All your difficulties appear to stem from the fact that you are willing to adopt any contortion just so long as you do not have to retract a stance you took on the Bible that you obviously cannot defend because it is, let's face it, completely absurd. You'd rather just brazen it out and pretend you didn't say what you said. It has been interesting to witness.