Tone of meaning...

Originally posted by Suzianne
I daresay this attitude has resulted in a lot more sin and bloodshed than Christianity. All those so-called Christians (CiNO?) who started the bloody ball rolling on the killing were motivated to "get theirs" while they could because this is the only life they had, so better grab everything they could while they're here, since there's no heavenly reward in any afterlife. Conveniently this also means no punishment, either.

As opposed to all those people who thought it doesn't matter if they/I die because they are ok in the afterlife...

Nobody kills in the name of atheism, (at least nobody sane) because it has no tenets or beliefs.

MANY people kill in the name of religion, and have done throughout history.

So you 'dare say' wrong, as usual.

Originally posted by googlefudge
As opposed to all those people who thought it doesn't matter if they/I die because they are ok in the afterlife...

Nobody kills in the name of atheism, (at least nobody sane) because it has no tenets or beliefs.

MANY people kill in the name of religion, and have done throughout history.

So you 'dare say' wrong, as usual.

if the atheist in question has a strong hostility to religion, then yes, he may kill in the name of atheism.

for example, atheists may believe that religion is merely the "opiate of the masses" and is thus preventing the working classes from uniting to overthrow an evil oppressive capitalist system. These atheists may then feel justified in acting violently to destroy all religions.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I daresay this attitude has resulted in a lot more sin and bloodshed than Christianity. All those so-called Christians (CiNO?) who started the bloody ball rolling on the killing were motivated to "get theirs" while they could because this is the only life they had, so better grab everything they could while they're here, since there's no heavenly reward in any afterlife. Conveniently this also means no punishment, either.

If belief in reward or punishment is all that keeps a person from doing harm to others, then I suppose we need that belief to exist. Under one theory it is a stage of moral development, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

But I think it is a bit overreaching to imply about someone that they are going to act immorally if they are not operating at the (eternal) reward/punishment stage of moral development. It might be better to ask such people about their moral standards and what it is that motivates them to be moral, if it is not this eternal R/P thingy. 🙂

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
There are other intensely personal and serious issues intelligent folks discuss without becoming off balance and exibiting excessive passion, aggression and angst. Serious medical conditions with imminent high risk surgery (major organ, brain or heart); serious financial issues (no longer affordable college tuition, personal or business bankruptcy); and ...[text shortened]... torneys without militantcy or combativeness.

Why not so with Christianity or religion?

gb

Doctors tell people all the time that they should change their ways or
suffer the consequences of high blood pressure, cancer, heart attack,
and death at an earlier age. But most people will not lose weight or
stop smoking. They want a magical pill to take to solve all their
problems for them so they can continue doing what they enjoy. That,
of course, is their choice. The same is true when it comes to Christianity.

Originally posted by googlefudge
As opposed to all those people who thought it doesn't matter if they/I die because they are ok in the afterlife...

Nobody kills in the name of atheism, (at least nobody sane) because it has no tenets or beliefs.

MANY people kill in the name of religion, and have done throughout history.

So you 'dare say' wrong, as usual.

If the believe system is wrong, then the resulting actions will be wrong as
well regardless if it is wrong religious belief or some other type of wrong
belief.

Originally posted by RJHinds
If the believe system is wrong, then the resulting actions will be wrong as
well regardless if it is wrong religious belief or some other type of wrong
belief.

Atheism is not a belief system.

How many times does this have to be said before you grasp it?

Atheism is the absence of a specific belief, it contains no beliefs, it is not a belief system.

Originally posted by googlefudge

Atheism is not a belief system.

How many times does this have to be said before you grasp it?

Atheism is the absence of a specific belief, it contains no beliefs, it is not a belief system.

Dumb question I guess but on what to professed atheists pin their hope?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Dumb question I guess but on what to professed atheists pin their hope?

All sorts of things, (depending on quite what you mean by 'pin their hope'😉.

As it explains in my bio, saying you are an atheist mearly tells you that their is one specific belief
(belief in the existence of a deity/deities) that you don't have.
Many Buddhists would/do qualify.
Anyone who doesn't believe in a deity or deities is an atheist.
That's a big selection of people with a huge range of beliefs and world views.

Usually however when people talk about atheists they mean secular atheists (not Buddhists or other).
And their are a number of different secular belief structures, like secular humanism.
They tend to favour logic and rationality, and scientific enquiry/skepticism.


EDIT: saying you are an atheist, (IE you don't believe in god), is like saying you don't believe in fairies,
or unicorns, or a floral teapot orbiting Saturn.
If I tell you I don't believe that there is a teapot orbiting Saturn you wouldn't (shouldn't) think it odd,
or remarkable (other than wondering why I bother specifically not believing in a tea pot around Saturn)
and you wouldn't think this absence of belief in need of justification.

There are a literally infinite number of things you could possibly believe, like teapots orbiting other planets,
and we don't bother believing or not believing in such things until we have some evidence or logical rational
for believing that such is or may be the case.
Operating on the principle of believing everything until it's proven false is impossible, impractical, and self
contradictory (an infinite number of those infinite ideas will contradict each other) so we generally believe things
for which we have evidence or rational to think that they are actually true or real.
If for no other reason than to keep the number of things we do or don't believe down to a manageable quantity.

Until we get to religion, where suddenly it is generally expected that people should believe things for which there
is no evidence at all.

Atheism as a concept exists because there is a cultural need to identify as someone who doesn't believe in a
god based on no evidence.

If nobody believed in god their would be no need of the label, in exactly the same way as their is no need to
identify ones self as someone who doesn't believe in unicorns, or extra-terrestrial orbiting teapots.

The label atheist is just as informative as a label saying you don't believe in unicorns at telling you what that
person actually believes in.

If you say you believe in a particular deity and associated religion then that comes with baggage, it is a set of
beliefs and doctrines usually associated with some sort of reference book explaining them.

Atheism doesn't have this, which is what I think confuses people.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Dumb question I guess but on what to professed atheists pin their hope?

Experience and the love of another, and the betterment of oneself for others, so that they may better themselves also.

That doesn't need a master God, but true understanding of oneself.

-m. (That was a serious note! 😀)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Dumb question I guess but on what to professed atheists pin their hope?

Other than what googlefudge and mikelom has said I would like to add that it is a mistake to lump atheists together as you would with religious groups.
The lack of belief does not mean that these people have anything else in common.
It is only on forums such as this one that it seems that atheists are in one group, in reality I suspect that atheists dont necessarily have anything else in common and they prolly disagree with eachother about a lot of other things.
It is only with religious groups that you can infer commonalities.

edit: after rereading googlefudges post it seems he has more or less said the same sort of thing as me here, but I will leave my post here all the same.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Doctors tell people all the time that they should change their ways or
suffer the consequences of high blood pressure, cancer, heart attack,
and death at an earlier age. But most people will not lose weight or
stop smoking. They want a magical pill to take to solve all their
problems for them so they can continue doing what they enjoy. That,
of course, is their choice. The same is true when it comes to Christianity.

So is the typical Christian a qualified doctor of the human soul?

Originally posted by googlefudge
All sorts of things, (depending on quite what you mean by 'pin their hope'😉.

As it explains in my bio, saying you are an atheist mearly tells you that their is one specific belief
(belief in the existence of a deity/deities) that you don't have.
Many Buddhists would/do qualify.
Anyone who doesn't believe in a deity or deities is an atheist.
That' ing them.

Atheism doesn't have this, which is what I think confuses people.

Just a correction there...

"Until we get to religion...believe things for which there is no evidence at all."
I reckon that religious people ,(and religion in general), do work on some evidence,(even if they do seem to read to much into that evidence sometimes. )
I don think religion would exist if there was absolutely no evidence to go on.
I think that misinformation and disinformation are the major obstacles from religions achieving (one of their) goals. Ie. religion started as attempt to unify the people under one God, but , it is evident from all around us, that this message has been corrupted,(prolly by the people whose interests this unification would NOT serve. ie those that hold the real power on the Earth and that have done so for at least 5000 years)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Dumb question I guess but on what to professed atheists pin their hope?

That's not at all a dumb question.

Given the statement that atheism is not a belief system, there is no generic answer, beyond a negative answer that the realization of such a hope is not dependent on the existence of or belief in deity.

But we must be careful about the word "profess" and I suggest it only be taken to mean, to declare openly and freely, and not as a declaration of faith. My declaration is that I believe I have an open mind to belief in deity, but don't currently happen to have such a belief in deity. When I have any stronger negative feelings I find they are oriented toward institutionalized religion.

I personally hope to live and love, long and well, go peacefully, and be well remembered.

Originally posted by googlefudge

All sorts of things, (depending on quite what you mean by 'pin their hope'😉.

As it explains in my bio, saying you are an atheist mearly tells you that their is one specific belief
(belief in the existence of a deity/deities) that you don't have.
Many Buddhists would/do qualify.
Anyone who doesn't believe in a deity or deities is an atheist.
laining them.

Atheism doesn't have this, which is what I think confuses people.

"All sorts of things, (depending on quite what you mean by 'pin their hope'😉."

Let me rephrase, "In what does an atheist place his or her confidence and trust". If the answer is nothing other than themselves, that would seems to me to leave an individual so very much alone, with so much uncertainty about an unknown future.

Bob

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"All sorts of things, (depending on quite what you mean by 'pin their hope'😉."

Let me rephrase, "In what does an atheist place his or her confidence and trust". If the answer is nothing other than themselves, that would seems to me to leave an individual so very much alone, with so much uncertainty about an unknown future.

Bob[/b]

Again it depends on the atheist, as said above, we are not a unified group, we have no binding tenets.

The only thing we have in common is a lack of belief in god.


That said, there are as I say unifying belief systems that are secular, such as secular humanism.

These do have tenets and such, they are just rational and not faith based.

Science is also a common denominator, as a mechanism to understanding the reality we live in it's unparalleled.
However while it does provide a framework and information useful for forming such things as a moral framework
such things are usually the domain of frameworks such as secular humanism.

There are also many (and growing) numbers of secular social groups, that provide the same social functions of a church
or religion.

We are social creatures by nature.