Originally posted by rwingettI couldn't care less what the uninformed opinion of the average man in the street is.
a=without. theism=the belief in one or more gods. Thus, atheism=to be without a belief in any gods.
I couldn't care less what the uninformed opinion of the average man in the street is. Atheism means to be without belief in any gods. It is not restricted to the rejection of said gods. Therefore implicit atheists (infants and whatnot) are still atheists. ...[text shortened]... encompasses implicit/explicit atheism, soft/hard atheism, and every logical combination thereof.
The meaning of any word is pretty much the sum total of how it is commonly used. Surely you recall in your lifetime how certain words came to be used entirely disconnected from their former use (fag, gay are two such examples).
To declare the common usage as insignificant and then replace that usage with your own private definition removes any standard and therefore eliminates meaningful dialogue.
Atheism means to be without belief in any gods. It is not restricted to the rejection of said gods.
But, since you're insistent on discounting "the uniformed opinion of the average man," try these two on for size:
From etymology.com:
atheist (n.)
1570s, from French athéiste (16c.), from Greek atheos "without god, denying the gods; abandoned of the gods; godless, ungodly," from a- "without" + theos "a god" (see Thea).
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=atheist&searchmode=none
From dictionary.com:
a·the·ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm]
noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism
As you can see, the very straightforward definition here involves a mental attitude.
A mental attitude that considers the question and makes a decision.
Prior to possessing a capacity, no one can be either theist or atheist, since it is a conscious decision.
You may as well say that a theist becomes an atheist when they're asleep or in a coma.
Or when they're dead.
15 Jan 14
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIs an infant a theist? Yes or No? If an infant is not a theist, then he is an atheist (albeit an implicit atheist). No active choice is required. Case Closed. Thank you for playing.
[b]I couldn't care less what the uninformed opinion of the average man in the street is.
The meaning of any word is pretty much the sum total of how it is commonly used. Surely you recall in your lifetime how certain words came to be used entirely disconnected from their former use (fag, gay are two such examples).
To declare the common usage ...[text shortened]... ll say that a theist becomes an atheist when they're asleep or in a coma.
Or when they're dead.[/b]
To help you with this concept I have made a flow chart to clarify the situation. Now, I do not typically make flow charts, so some people may have some quibbles with its organization. But I think it is a reasonably accurate depiction of the process:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/rwingett/AtheistFlowChart.jpg
Originally posted by rwingettOriginally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 4)
Yes. That would be an implicit atheist.
Definition of TABULA RASA
"1. Noun: the mind in its hypothetical primary blank or empty state before receiving outside impressions. 2. something existing in its original pristine state. Origin of TABULA RASA: Latin, smoothed or erased tablet. First Known Use: 1535"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tabula%20rasa
TABULA RASA
tab•u•la ra•sa (t b y -l rä s , -z ) n. pl. tab•u•lae ra•sae (t b y -l rä s , -z )
"1. a. The mind before it receives the impressions gained from experience. b. The unformed, featureless mind in the philosophy of John Locke. 2. A need or an opportunity to start from the beginning. [Medieval Latin tabula r sa : Latin tabula, tablet + Latin r sa, feminine of r sus, erased.]"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tabula+rosa
_________________________________________
Originally posted by rwingett
Yes. That would be an implicit atheist.
_________________________________________
Definition of implicit in English
"Syllabification: (im·plic·it) Pronunciation: /imˈplisit/ adjective
1. implied though not plainly expressed:comments seen as implicit criticism of the policies
• [predic.] (implicit in) essentially or very closely connected with; always to be found in: the values implicit in the school ethos.
2. with no qualification or question; absolute: an implicit faith in God
3 Mathematics (of a function) not expressed directly in terms of independent variables."
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/implicit
Note: The mind of a newborn must reach a point of empirical awareness and god consciousness before able to accept or reject the possibility; implicit ignorance or innocence of the polarizing theism question would be resident at birth.
15 Jan 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI thought we had progressed beyond all that. Alas, it appears we're back to square 1.
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 4)
[b]Definition of TABULA RASA
"1. Noun: the mind in its hypothetical primary blank or empty state before receiving outside impressions. 2. something existing in its original pristine state. Origin of TABULA RASA: Latin, smoothed or erased tablet. First Known Use: 1535"
http://www.mer ...[text shortened]... y; implicit ignorance or innocence of the polarizing theism question would be resident at birth.[/b]
I repeat: Is an infant a theist? Yes or No? If an infant is not a theist, then he is an atheist (albeit an implicit atheist). No active choice is required. Implicit atheism is the default state from which questions about theism are subsequently considered. To paraphrase your words, ignorance or innocence of the theism question would equal implicit atheism, which would be the default state at birth.
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
15 Jan 14
Theism and atheism are exclusive and exhaustive.
You can only be one or the other, and not both [exclusive].
And they are the only possible options [exhaustive].
To be a theist you must believe that a god or gods exist.
If a being does not have such a belief for any reason
then that person is not a theist and thus must be an atheist.
Look, there are people who believe in gods, and people who don't.
Those are the only options and thus every person must fall into
one of the two camps.
That is true regardless of what label you use for those two groups.
Theist and atheist are the most sensible labels currently available.
15 Jan 14
Originally posted by googlefudgeTertium Quid: the newborn's mind is neutral to the theism or atheism persuasion
Theism and atheism are exclusive and exhaustive.
You can only be one or the other, and not both [exclusive].
And they are the only possible options [exhaustive].
To be a theist you must believe that a god or gods exist.
If a being does not have such a belief [b]for any reason
then that person is not a theist and thus must be an atheis ...[text shortened]... se for those two groups.
Theist and atheist are the most sensible labels currently available.[/b]
(just as some of us now are independents, rather than conservative or liberal).
Originally posted by rwingettIt's unfortunate but apparently so.... a distinction with a difference was made which seems to have been lost in the shuffle.
I thought we had progressed beyond all that. Alas, it appears we're back to square 1.
I repeat: Is an infant a theist? Yes or No? If an infant is not a theist, then he is an atheist (albeit an implicit atheist). No active choice is required. Implicit atheism is the default state from which questions about theism are subsequently considered. To paraphrase ...[text shortened]... of the theism question would equal implicit atheism, which would be the default state at birth.
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
15 Jan 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyConservative or liberal are not exclusive and exhaustive options.
Tertium Quid: the newborn's mind is neutral to the theism or atheism persuasion
(just as some of us now are independents, rather than conservative or liberal).
Theist and atheist ARE exclusive and exhaustive.
The meaning of atheist is NOT A THEIST.
ANYONE not a theist, is an atheist.
A newborn doesn't believe in a god, and indeed almost certainly couldn't
even conceive of a god, and thus is not a theist.
Therefore they are an atheist.
It beggars belief that you can't understand this.
15 Jan 14
Originally posted by googlefudge..... a newborn doesn't disbelieve in god either; it hasn't any empirical or rational basis from which to choose.
Conservative or liberal are not exclusive and exhaustive options.
Theist and atheist ARE exclusive and exhaustive.
The meaning of atheist is NOT A THEIST.
ANYONE not a theist, is an atheist.
A newborn doesn't believe in a god, and indeed almost certainly couldn't
even conceive of a god, and thus is not a theist.
Therefore they are an atheist.
It beggars belief that you can't understand this.
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
15 Jan 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyNo it doesn't disbelieve it LACKS belief.
..... a newborn doesn't disbelieve in god either; it hasn't any empirical or rational basis from which to choose.
Atheism does not require disbelief, only a lack of belief.
Atheism includes the neutral default position of lacking a belief either way.
15 Jan 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAll non-theists are atheists. You futilely resist this because you've been bred to believe that atheism necessarily equals hard atheism, and that by conceding that infants are implicit atheists means we are somehow claiming that they're predisposed toward explicit atheism. The only point being made here is that non-theism equals atheism. And that everyone who does not self-identify as a theist is, by default, an atheist (non-theist). Every single man, woman and child on the planet is one or the other.
......... nor atheist; it's a third way of viewing the pristine state of an infant's mind which is foreign and all but lost on ours.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou have to teach a kid the concept of Santa Claus, dude. It doesn't just spontaneously appear in a young brain's memory engrams. You first need to win a kid's trust, then exploit that trust to plant a lie. The same goes for God. Hence humans are born as what you might call passive atheists.
......... nor atheist; it's a third way of viewing the pristine state of an infant's mind which is foreign and all but lost on ours.
15 Jan 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyTertium Quid…tabula rasa…throw around all the Latin you like, but the tongue of Caesar won't enable you to square the circle.
Tertium Quid: the newborn's mind is neutral to the theism or atheism persuasion
(just as some of us now are independents, rather than conservative or liberal).