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Originally posted by @eladarSo you try to side step the issue. That is pathetic.
So you try to side step the issue. That is pathetic.
Admit that by eating the fruit Adam did not incur physical death, but the second death and be done with it.
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Pathetic ? Sounds bad.
What issue did I sidestep ?
Admit that by eating the fruit Adam did not incur physical death, but the second death and be done with it.
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It did incur physical death.
Why should I admit that it did not ?
it may not have led to his physical death in 24 hours.
But the process of him turning back into dust certainly began.
That is why God tells him that that is exactly what is about to occur. Right?
" ... Until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:19b)
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12 Oct 17
The two "trees" are still with us today. That is why to much argument over whether this is a historical record or purely mythical is secondary.
If we turn to Jesus Christ we will turn to the life of God.
If we remain independent we live on by the knowledge of good and evil - something which we are naturally very proud of. That is because it makes us independent from God.
Turn Jesus Christ is to turn to the life, the uncreated life, the resurrection life, the life which is the Person of God, and the life which is eternal life.
To turn to Jesus Christ is also to turn to the One who met the demand of the glory of God, satisfied the righteous requirement of God, and lived the holiness of God. These three barriers excluded us from receiving the Person of God into our spiritual being.
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12 Oct 17
2 edits
Elader,
Let me help you then. You wrote in the OP:
I think people forget about the tree of life. If Adam had never eaten of the tree of life, he would not live forever.
Part of Eve's curse was pain in child birth, not child birth.
Why do people assume Adam and Eve would live forever before eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil?
is there something in here that you feel I have sidestepped ?
I think Adam was created upright (Ecc.7:29) (and I think) had no reason to physically die. That is other than taking in the other source that was forbidden to him by God.
What did I sidestep ?
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12 Oct 17
The tree of life must represent something more than just an endless created life.
I submit that it stood for "the life of God". It represented the Person of God as the uncreated eternal life.
The ground I have for this includes Paul's word in Ephesians 4:18. Man was alienated from "the life of God"
"Being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance which is in them, because of the hardness of their heart." (Eph. 4:18)
When was man FIRST estranged or alienated from the life of God?
It should be in Genesis 3:22-24.
After Adam and Eve's disobedience the way to "the tree of life" was guarded by a cherubim of glory with a flaming sword which revolved around in every direction. There was no longer any way for man to approach the tree of life.
The tree of life therefore must represent "the life of God" from which man was alienated after his fall.
12 Oct 17
Originally posted by @sonshipIf there was no physical death, then why would there be a tree of life?
[b] So you try to side step the issue. That is pathetic.
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Pathetic ? Sounds bad.
What issue did I sidestep ?
Admit that by eating the fruit Adam did not incur physical death, but the second death and be done with it.
----------------------------------------- ...[text shortened]... t you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:19b) [/b] [/quote][/b]
12 Oct 17
Originally posted by @eladarI see, well I expect the rhp Christian educator, sonship, will be along to put you right.
Thanks for sharing your beliefs.
As I said earlier this thread was created to educate those with faulty assumptions concerning a literal view.
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12 Oct 17
1 edit
Originally posted by @eladar
If there was no physical death, then why would there be a tree of life?
If there was no physical death, then why would there be a tree of life?
I did not write that there was no physical death.
I explained -
It did incur physical death.
Why should I admit that it did not ?
it may not have led to his physical death in 24 hours.
But the process of him turning back into dust certainly began.
That is why God tells him that that is exactly what is about to occur. Right?
" ... Until you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:19b)
Satan was the Daystar - Lucifer, a very highest created angelic being with an everlastng life. The Daystar the Anointed Cherub did not have the life of God.
The angels are high created beings with an everlasting life too.
The angels of God, either the good ones or the bad ones, do not have "the life of God" .
This means that to live forever is one thing and to live forever with the created life mingled with the life of God is another thing.
Again, to live forever, like an angel, is one thing.
To live forever with the life of God dispensed into you is another thing.
Man was a unique created being capable of having something that NO angel. no archangel, No anointed cherub and no other created being ever had. And that is to have God live in them.
In the fall of Adam he got mixed with Satan and excluded from being united with God.
In the fall of Adam Satan's nature got into man and God's life was excluded from his participation.
Satan ran ahead of God to produce a counterfeit situation of man being mingled with Satan. That is to spontaneously carry out the nature of Satan injected into humanity.
This was an evil preemptive move to thwart the eternal purpose of God. And that purpose is that God would dispense Himself as divine life into man for man to be mingled with God.
That is all for this post.
There are some things about this that I do not fully understand yet.
But I think I understand this - Paul does not say sinners are alienated from an everlasting life. Paul writes that fallen sinners were "alienated .... from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
When we Christian say " Jesus came into my heart. Jesus came into my life. I received Jesus Christ" what has really happened is that God has implanted His uncreated life to be united, blended and mingled with a person's created life.
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12 Oct 17
Originally posted by @eladar
If there was no physical death, then why would there be a tree of life?
why would there be a tree of life?
There are some things about this that I do not fully understand at this time.
But this I think I understand. What God wants more than anything else is to be mingled with man.
God can have humans live everlastingly YET NOT .... be mingled with them.
While this may seem the ultimate blessing to us it is not the ultimate purpose of God.
God placed created man before "the tree of life" because He wants to dispense Himself into man.
Jesus Christ to us seems like an enigma. Actually Jesus Christ represents the standard model of what God intends to make mass production of - Godmen, Divinity mingled with Humanity - the incorporation of the uncreated Eternal Person into the created human life.
It is for this reason that we exist.
And this is why God created the universe.
He wants the mingling of the uncreated invisible Perfect One with the created man for a visible manifestation of mingling of divinity with humanity for His glory and for our enjoyment.
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12 Oct 17
If anyone wants to read more, more can be found in the book "The Tree of Life" by one Witness Lee.
Here is an except.
FULFILLING THE REQUIREMENTS OF GOD’S GLORY,
GOD’S HOLINESS, AND GOD’S RIGHTEOUSNESS
TO ENJOY THE TRIUNE GOD
God’s intention is to work Himself into us as our life in the form of food by our eating of Him. But man became fallen. Due to the fall of man, man became involved with Satan, with the evil force of darkness. All the negative things in this universe are related to man due to his fall. Before man was created, Satan, the darkness of Satan, and the evil kingdom of Satan were there already, but man had nothing to do with these negative things. By the fall, Satan brought all these negative things to man, which are against God’s glory, God’s holiness, and God’s righteousness. God’s glory, holiness, and righteousness would not allow fallen man to touch God. However, the all-inclusive death of Christ dealt with and did away with all these negative things. Furthermore, through His death and in His resurrection Christ became a life-giving Spirit. He has made Himself available for us to enjoy. The Triune God embodied in Christ who is realized as the life-giving Spirit is the central outcome of all the works which Christ has accomplished.
The tabernacle of the Old Testament shows us that the Triune God is for our enjoyment. There are three parts to the tabernacle—the outer court, the Holy Place, and the Holy of Holies. In the outer court is the righteousness of God, in the Holy Place is the holiness of God, and in the Holy of Holies is the glory of God. If you are going to pass the outer court, you have to fulfill the requirement of God’s righteousness; if you are going to get into the Holy Place, you have to fulfill the requirements of God’s holiness; and if you are going to get into the Holy of Holies, you need to fulfill the requirements of God’s glory. In the Holy of Holies is God Himself. The Ark of the Testimony is the very embodiment of God, and inside the Ark is the hidden manna, which signifies that God is our enjoyment. At the conclusion of the divine revelation, the New Jerusalem is called the tabernacle of God (Rev. 21:2-3). This tabernacle is a total, ultimate, and central outcome of all the work of God in this universe. Included with this tabernacle are justification in the outer court, sanctification in the Holy Place, and glorification in the Holy of Holies.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=0FC3
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12 Oct 17
This book is composed of messages given by Brother Witness Lee in Los Angeles, California, on August 1 through 29, 1965.
Here's a portion of chapter one.
THE WAY TO FULFILL GOD’S PURPOSE
Scripture Reading: Gen. 2:7-9; John 1:4; 6:35, 57; 4:14, 24; 6:63
GOD’S PURPOSE
God’s economy and God’s building both depend on the tree of life. In Genesis 1 there is a full record of God’s creation. On the sixth day God created a man in His own image and then committed man with His own authority (v. 26). Image means “expression.” Something in your image is the expression of yourself. God created man in His own image for the purpose of having man as His very expression in this universe and on this earth. God is hidden and invisible, yet God has a heart’s desire to express Himself through man. God did not create a thousand men at one time, but He created just one man. All the descendants of that one man were included in that one man. God created a corporate man in His image to express Himself, so man is the very image, the very expression, of God.
Why did God also commit man with His authority? God’s purpose is to express Himself, but this purpose of God was greatly frustrated by His enemy. God has an enemy in this universe and on this earth, and this earth has been usurped from the hand of God, robbed away from God. Thus, God had to create a man to deal with His enemy. It is for this purpose that God committed His authority to man, that man may be not only His expression but also His representative, representing Him on this earth as the very authority to deal with His enemy.
12 Oct 17
Originally posted by @sonship[/b]So you follow a heretic, what else is there to say?
This book is composed of messages given by Brother Witness Lee in Los Angeles, California, on August 1 through 29, 1965.
Here's a portion of chapter one.
[b]THE WAY TO FULFILL GOD’S PURPOSE
Scripture Reading: Gen. 2:7-9; John 1:4; 6:35, 57; 4:14, 24; 6:63
GOD’S PURPOSE
God’s economy and God’s building both depend on the tree o ...[text shortened]... sentative, representing Him on this earth as the very authority to deal with His enemy.
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12 Oct 17
3 edits
Originally posted by @eladarI didn't see any heresy in those paragraphs.
So you follow a heretic, what else is there to say?
Which part of what I quoted was heretical?
Don't branch off to some other writings debated elsewhere yet.
Show me the heresy in what I sampled from the book "The Tree of Life".
In other words don't play a cowardly game of obfuscation and third and fourth party Internet gossip.
Let your next post on this thread identify the heretical teaching you spotted.
(Things you don't agree with don't necessarily make a heretical teaching)
13 Oct 17
Originally posted by @sonshipIf you did, you wouldn't be a follower.
I didn't see any heresy in those paragraphs.
Which part of what I quoted was heretical?
Don't branch off to some other writings debated elsewhere yet.
Show me the heresy in what I sampled from the book [b]"The Tree of Life".
In other words don't play a cowardly game of obfuscation and third and fourth party Internet gossip.
Let your next p ...[text shortened]... hing you spotted.
(Things you don't agree with don't necessarily make a heretical teaching)[/b]