Originally posted by twhiteheadI would be willing to hear any compelling evidence you have that proves animals can think.
I threw it into the discussion because it is the only reason I could think of, and in my experience it is the main reason people discount the ability of animals to think without warrant.
[b]I have observed animals and can tell by their behavior whether they're scared or hungry or content, but I couldn't tell what they're thinking.
Yet for some rea ...[text shortened]... d you knew exactly what they were not thinking.(their existence in the sense of self-awareness).[/b]
I never said animals can't think. I just don't believe they can think like humans in any appreciable way.
Truth is, whether animals can think or not, that isn't the subject of this thread.
Originally posted by twhiteheadDo the math.
It is not clear what Freaky was on about with his aeroplane story, and he seems disinclined to explain, but it appears to be this:
1. He believes the earth is flat.
2. He believe the phrase 'straight line' means 'horizontal line on a map'.
3. He believes the statement 'a straight line is the shortest distance between two points' means that a horizontal ...[text shortened]... ps of the real world.
Anyone else care to guess as to what weird thoughts go on in his brain?
Or, if you're in the eastern half of the planet, do the maths.
Originally posted by josephwOMG
I would be willing to hear any compelling evidence you have that proves animals can think.
.
There are any number of experiments showing problem-solving in animals;
rats, squirrels, octopodes, pigeons and obviously chimps and dolphins.
In 2012, during the "Consciousness in Human and Nonhuman Animals"
conference in Cambridge, a group of scientists concluded "...the weight of
evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological
substrates that generate consciousness. Non-human animals, including
all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses,
also possess these neurological substrates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition
Originally posted by josephwWell that comes back to the definition of 'think'. I would say there is no doubt whatsoever that by any reasonable definition animals can, and do, think. But that was not what you initially said, you said they were not self aware. Yet you admit total ignorance of what they do actually think about.
I would be willing to hear any compelling evidence you have that proves animals can think.
Truth is, whether animals can think or not, that isn't the subject of this thread.
I agree, so I will leave it here for now.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou seem to be good at talking nonsense then refusing to explain and pretending that it is up to others to work out what you really wanted to say. Sorry, but I am not a mind reader. I have attempted a guess, but that is all it is.
I've given you more than enough time to figure this one out.
Once again, I have to conclude that you neither value serious thought nor good communication.
Originally posted by twhiteheadNonsense, is it?
You seem to be good at talking nonsense then refusing to explain and pretending that it is up to others to work out what you really wanted to say. Sorry, but I am not a mind reader. I have attempted a guess, but that is all it is.
Once again, I have to conclude that you neither value serious thought nor good communication.
Not really surprised you gave up so easily.
Go back to sleep, twhitehead.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't think non-Euclidean Geometry is going to help them much, do you?
In advanced math, a great circle [b]is a straight line.[/b]
And FreakyKBH
still waiting for you to answer my post
Do you believe the shortest distance between two
places with the same latitude is due East or due West?
Consider the following thought experiment.
With an open mind, if possible.
You have opted to take an intercontinental flight to LAX from Taipei, Taiwan. You are seated next to two individuals, let’s call them KBH and TW, who are having a conversation about whether or not it matters if a scientist thinks the Earth is flat. During this conversation, you learn that KBH thinks that it doesn't matter, and TW disagrees with him.
You have a severe, life threatening allergy to bee stings. If you are stung by a bee, you need medical attention ASAP. As luck would have it, after the doors on the plane are closed and you are en route, a bee lands on you, stinging you in his agitation. Your situation is dire: you will die if you don't receive medical attention ASAP.
Question: do you take your chances on getting to LAX, or do you ask the captain to make an emergency stop at Ted Stevens International Airport in Alaska?
Both KBH and TW offer to help you decide. TW and KBH both agree that Anchorage is a shorter distance from Taiwan, but KBH claims to know that the "official time" from Taiwan to Anchorage is about 19 hours, or about 5 hours longer than the "official time" to LAX. TW disagrees, saying that it should not take longer to fly a shorter distance.
You are too ill to think about this much longer on your own, and need to figure out which one of these individuals you will trust to make the decision for you. Your life is on the line. Knowing what you know about these two individuals, which would you choose to trust?
SPOILER ALERT BELOW:
Hopefully you choose TW. As I am sure is quite obvious, it is in fact wildly incorrect that a plane flying from Taiwan to Alaska takes 5 hours longer than a plane flying from Taiwan to LAX. In fact, all things being equal, it should take roughly 70% as long to reach Anchorage (of course depending on plane type, weather, exact route, etc.).
See:
www.travelmath.com/flying-time/from/Taiwan/to/LAX
www.travelmath.com/flying-time/from/Taiwan/to/Anchorage,+AK
Also, I apologize for this rather dumb thought experiment. Thought experiments should be reserved for ideas that either cannot be tested or have not yet been tested. However, this "thought experiment" was basically performed only last week. A woman went into labor on a flight from Taiwan to LAX, which was then diverted to Anchorage. Some of the news articles mistakenly claimed that from Taiwan to Anchorage took 19 hours, but these reports were incorrect. The flight from Taiwan to Anchorage actually took slightly over nine hours.
See:
onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2015/10/14/insane-video-of-woman-giving-birth-on-a-flight/
I do think this thought experiment does go to the OP, and shows that a person's thoughts do indeed matter. If you believe screwy things, like it takes longer to fly shorter distances, that we didn't land on the moon, or that a legitimate scientist can believe the Earth is flat, then it could cost you your life, because you might be inclined to leave your life in the hands of someone like KBH instead of TW.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIt certainly looks like it. And your refusal to explain certainly seems to confirm the hypothesis.
Nonsense, is it?
Not really surprised you gave up so easily.
Go back to sleep, twhitehead.
Pretending you are the only one awake, whilst refusing to pass on your secrets, may have worked for Budha, but when you do it, nobody is going to believe you.
Originally posted by wolfgang59Well, given that we are discussing the differences between a flat earth (Euclidean geometry) and a spherical earth (elliptic geometry), I think it is essential to at least mention the differences.
I don't think non-Euclidean Geometry is going to help them much, do you?