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Wasn't Twain the damnedest ?

Wasn't Twain the damnedest ?

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no1marauder
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Originally posted by lucifershammer
If there are arguments, I respond to them. If all I find are bald, sweeping generalisations, over-simplified assertions and emotional rhetoric, then my response makes sense.
LMFAO!

twhitehead

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Originally posted by whodey
So you don't think that God exists and you are saying that the cruelty in this world is not mankinds choice? We can't control it, just minimize it? So I guess what you are saying is that God forces men to be cruel, even though he does not exist? Then you go on to say that the cruelty and suffering are the choices of an all powerfull God and not man, and we then choose to go out and throw more children out into the world? Interesting.
You are reading extra logic into my post that wasnt there at all. Yes I dont think that most of the suffering in this world is mankinds choice for his children. No I dont think we can control it but merely try to minimise it. I never said anything about God making people cruel. In fact, I never said that people were cruel, I said the world was.
I do think that if God exists he could choose to reduce cruelty and suffering and the fact that he doesnt tells us a lot about what kind of God he is.
Yes we 'throw more children out into the world' with full knowledge of the cruelty and suffering they will face. However the only other choice is to not have children. We do not have the option that an all powerfull God would have of having children or creations that do not have to face cruelty and suffering.

F

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Originally posted by bbarr
Your confusion results from your starting with a false premise. I'm not so wedded to my identity that I can't bear the thought of its cessation.
The confusion is yours in this situation. Two of the greatest geniuses to ever walk the planet (Jesus and Paul) both elevated the word of God over their own thoughts. When a person comes to that conclusion, they are truly contented. Until a person comes to that conclusion, they are faced with a constant need for justification.

Of course, a person cannot come to that conclusion until they are satisfied that the word of God is what it claims to be. I am of the opinion (from my scant four months on this site) that the proof required for minds like yours cannot be satisfied within the confines of this format. The problem does not lie solely within the construct of the forum, but the 'party line' atmosphere the forum facilitates certainly doesn't contribute to clarity.

You claim that you can bear the thought of your identity ceasing, and while you certainly know yourself better than I do, I challenge you to challenge yourself on that point. I contend that your identity is so completely intertwined with your intellect, that if your intellect were to suffer (what you cosider to be) a fatal blow, you would--- in effect--- die. I further contend that your fear of that intellectual death is what prevents you from considering (let alone believing) anything which you currently hold to be irrational.

We are both assuming premises. I presume the Bible is what it says it is. Some people arrive at this without testing it even a smidgen, others only after as many tests as they can apply, others still somewhere inbetween. You presume that your intellect is to be trusted implicitly. For you, the evidence that has convinced others of the Bible's veracity either does not exist, or is insufficient to cover its claims.

However, I contend again that it is mostly your fear of looking unintelligent that prevents you from accepting the premise. Samuel Clemens wanted God to answer to him, without even considering that his own standard of right and wrong, fairness, etc., was derived from his concepts of what God ought to be, according to him. As I stated earlier, SC was bright enough to see far, but proud enough to remain blind (although my sense of the matter is that he likely had accepted Jesus Christ at one point and was simply never able to forgive himself for doing so).

My few attempts at posting systematic theology on this forum was directly for the benefit of people such as yourself, Big Dog Problem and Telerion: those who think are typically not going to respond well to evangelical barking, as Nemesio points out in his post here. Therefore, I posted outlines of two critical aspects of theology: the attributes of God and the divine decree. With a premise of the Bible as the word of God, the thought was, if a person was able to temporarily suspend their normal assessment of the initial issue they would see God as the Bible describes Him, not as He had been presented in their individual experiences.

I am not aware of even one thinking Christian who has not had problems with their own superficial readings of the Scriptures, on many of the same issues brought up here. Any thinking person had better have problems with some of the things written therein. However, if their thinking stops there, thinking themselves wise, they make themselves fools. We should expect problems of transliterations, of cultural differences, of sociological differences, and etc., etc., with any ancient writings. In the same spirit of expectation, we should be expected to sort things out to their logical conclusions prior to making assessments relative to the initial issue.

F

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Originally posted by Nemesio
It is the fear of death --- fear of the unknown --- which drives so much of religion.
The blindly religious clutch the security blanket of their faith so tightly that, in spite
of tremendous evidence, they will continue to assert absolute absurdities are true.

Telerion posted a courageous post some time ago in which he freely admitted fear
of death. es it now. Don't fool yourself by claiming it is
bbarr who is running scared.

Nemesio
Good post.

I cannot disagree with your assessment that fear drives many people to religion. Fear is a big motivator in life for practically anything we do. I have achieved a moderate level of success within my company directly related to fear: upon leaving my immediate family (alright, my dad kicked me out, ok?), I was deathly afraid of sinking instead of swimming. My reaction? Do whatever it took to learn how to swim, and fast. Of course, that fear can only sustain and propel a person for so long, and eventually something else begins to take its place.

I have not convinced myself of anything which any of my counterparts have not also done. While I have become convinced that the word of God (accurately taught) is to be elevated over even my own thoughts, my counterparts are convinced that reason/logic/philosophy are to be elevated over their own thoughts. They bring their thoughts in line with Kant/Descartes/Freud/Darwin or perhaps to specified schools of thought, such as compatibilism.

While I appreciate the unintended compliment of a child-like persona, you are wrong on at least one count: I am not afraid, even a fraction. Quite the contrary, I am excited for the next phase of life and look forward to the transition (death).

With respect to the Bible being wrong, it has been my experience (judge it how you will) that every single time the Bible was 'shown' to be wrong, it was but a matter of time before it was shown to be right after all. The problem was either inaccurate reading/application, or previously undisclosed proof finally come to light.

And, finally, the distinction must be made between power mongers and the Bible. To hear some say it, one would have the impression that the Bible is the means of subjugating people, of giving power to the oppressors. Clearly, this is not the message of the Bible. The power mongers will use anything (patriotism, for example) as a tool to pry the ignorant and fearful into submission. That some would use people's ignorance of the word of God as a weapon against them shouldn't surprise us.

I will not cease to be a patriot simply because patriotism is being used against us by the current administration, nor will I cease to follow the word of God simply because power mongers use patchwork Bible verses to support their hidden schemes.

w

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Originally posted by twhitehead
You are reading extra logic into my post that wasnt there at all. Yes I dont think that most of the suffering in this world is mankinds choice for his children. No I dont think we can control it but merely try to minimise it. I never said anything about God making people cruel. In fact, I never said that people were cruel, I said the world was.
I do thin ...[text shortened]... God would have of having children or creations that do not have to face cruelty and suffering.
Just as I have made assumptions about your last post in judging you I think that you make assumptions about God in judging him. You assume that God could make things better for us and that he should act in doing so. You also make assumptions about God's role in free will and assume he should be in control despite giving us free will. You fail to take into consideration the fact that God himself came down to earth to suffer a die a horrible death for you and I. What about the long road traveled to get to that point and the men and women of faith who suffered and travailed to get us to that point? What aboult the scriptures that say such things as it is not God's will that any should perish? People do perish, however, even though it is not God's will according to scripture. Scripture also says that he stands at the door of your heart knocking and wishing that you answer his call. As we have seen, it is not hard to assume things. Especially from a skewed point of view such as yours and my points of view. I to have struggled with such questions. I, however, think I can see both sides better than you perhaps. This is because I answered his call and he opened my eyes to some things. It is truley hard to understand that a God of love exists when we are expereincing pain and suffering on so many different levels. When one is in pain, you tend to focus on that pain and is very distracting. I compare it to trying to teach Algerbra to someone who just broken their arm. More than likely, you will only aggrevate them than enlighten them. They will just curse you to your face and say, "Fix the pain stupid!" I know because I have been there. The trouble is, is that there is only one way to fix the pain and that is to answer the call. At least that has been my experience.

BigDogg
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Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Perhaps its because your definition of arrogance is skewed. Many people (Christians as well) misconstrue mealy-mouthed meekness with humility. That is not the case, according to God.
I would not label a christian 'arrogant' for standing up for his or her beliefs. It's when they become experts on so many other issues even remotely related to their faith (evolution, abortion, etc.) that they come off as arrogant. (Especially when they use the Bible as their primary evidence for their position on the issue.)

DoctorScribbles
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Originally posted by lucifershammer
If there are arguments, I respond to them. If all I find are bald, sweeping generalisations, over-simplified assertions and emotional rhetoric, then my response makes sense.
You're not very good at being insulting or demeaning. You should either hone your skills or stick to being a weasel.

l

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Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
You're not very good at being insulting or demeaning. You should either hone your skills or stick to being a weasel.
Perhaps I need to work on my insulting/demeaning side more. It's only here that I've come to realise how integral a part of rational debate it is considered to be.

DoctorScribbles
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Originally posted by lucifershammer
Perhaps I need to work on my insulting/demeaning side more. It's only here that I've come to realise how integral a part of rational debate it is considered to be.
This is the Spirituality forum. Debates is next door.

no1marauder
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Originally posted by lucifershammer
Perhaps I need to work on my insulting/demeaning side more. It's only here that I've come to realise how integral a part of rational debate it is considered to be.
You try to be insulting and demeaning all the time. You just suck at it.

F

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Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
I would not label a christian 'arrogant' for standing up for his or her beliefs. It's when they become experts on so many other issues even remotely related to their faith (evolution, abortion, etc.) that they come off as arrogant. (Especially when they use the Bible as their primary evidence for their position on the issue.)
For most Christians, the Bible is the final authority on all matters, remotely related or otherwise. Obviously no one can be an expert on all matters; however, for the one so equipped and inclined, the principle issue of all matters are readily refuted or confirmed when compared to the absolutes provided by the Bible.

no1marauder
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Originally posted by FreakyKBH
For most Christians, the Bible is the final authority on all matters, remotely related or otherwise. Obviously no one can be an expert on all matters; however, for the one so equipped and inclined, the principle issue of all matters are readily refuted or confirmed when compared to the absolutes provided by the Bible.
Good. Take this quiz:

I own a slave. He does something that displeases me like misses a spot while waxing my Mercedes. I decide to beat him with a rod. Now could you please tell me what possible punishments I should face and why under these scenarios:

1) The slave dies right there while I am beating him with the rod:

2) The slave crawls away and dies a few days later.

Feel free to consult the Bible as "final authority" on this matter. Thank you for your time.

DoctorScribbles
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Originally posted by no1marauder
Good. Take this quiz:

I own a slave. He does something that displeases me like misses a spot while waxing my Mercedes. I decide to beat him with a rod. Now could you please tell me what possible punishments I should face and why under these scenarios:

1) The slave dies right there while I am beating him with the rod:

2) The slave crawls ...[text shortened]... Feel free to consult the Bible as "final authority" on this matter. Thank you for your time.
According to secular morality, you ought not own the slave in the first place, you ought not beat him with a rod, and you ought not beat him to immediate or eventual death.

I'm interested to see how the Biblical standard compares.

L

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Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Good post.

I cannot disagree with your assessment that fear drives many people to religion. Fear is a big motivator in life for practically anything we do. I have achieved a moderate level of success within my company directly related to fear: upon leaving my immediate family (alright, my dad kicked me out, ok?), I was deathly afraid of sinking instea God simply because power mongers use patchwork Bible verses to support their hidden schemes.
I am not afraid, even a fraction. Quite the contrary, I am excited for the next phase of life and look forward to the transition (death).

Your rigorous methods aimed at self-delusion are working, then.

EDIT: I don't think you have allowed Nemesio's excellent post to gestate properly; give it some more time to sink in.

no1marauder
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Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]I am not afraid, even a fraction. Quite the contrary, I am excited for the next phase of life and look forward to the transition (death).

Your rigorous methods aimed at self-delusion are working, then.

EDIT: I don't think you have allowed Nemesio's excellent post to gestate properly; give it some more time to sink in.[/b]
I wonder if he throws a big party whenever someone in his immediate family di-- er, accomplishes the "transition".

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